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Old 05-31-2014, 09:31 AM   #1 
TealHoundogg
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Question What does that have to do with anything?

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong section but I was just curious.

Lately, I've noticed a lot of people who think breeding(dogs mostly) is wrong and should be restricted or outlawed. Even breeders who have a good track record are considered unfit to own animals.

Before I read up on breeding bettas I had wanted to breed dogs but got a lot of backlash... I decided to try bettas for now.

Did the research and checked the various threads here.

Two of my friends bred their dogs once and neither had a problem finding them homes. I've also seen people here and on YouTube who were successful with selling betta fry.

Still, there's a lot of animals who would end up with diluted gene pools or possibly extinct if breeders didn't work so hard to maintain them.

Also there's many breeders who love and care for their animals... dogs or other wise.

I also notice a major difference in bettas from aquarium stores and those from chains like Petco and Petsmart. I talked with one employee at an aquarium store who said they treat their bettas if they arrive with fin rot and won't sell them until they're better. Went to a Petco and reported a betta with severe fin rot and found him back on the shelf the next day!

But the way stores treat their fish can vary. I stopped at a different Petco and found another betta with fin rot, after bringing him to the attention of the manager, he was immediately taken to be checked out. Apparently there was an outbreak of fin rot with one shippment. Went to an aquarium store in L.A. years ago which smelled low tide when I walked in and the fish didn't look healthy. That store has gone out of business and I can think of a few reasons why.

Plus, there's some pets where the only way you can acquire them is from a breeder. Take for example the Gypsy Vanner Horse. I've only seen one once and she was so beautiful! There aren't a lot of them in the U.S. though. It's the same thing with the Tibetan Mastiff.

Personally, I have nothing against breeders who do it as a hobby or for the show ring. Same goes with people who purchase from them.

Pets need homes regardless of where they come from.

I have read that the popularity of owning saltwater fish(Clownfish especially) went up after the release of Finding Nemo. Meanwhile, veiltail bettas aren't recognized by any of the major fish show circuits because too many have been bred for the pet market.

Anyway...

Anyone here ran into somebody who disagreed with breeding and raising animals?
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:49 PM   #2 
Fenghuang
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I know people who feel that the time, energy, and money expended in breeding and showing domesticated animals could be better placed in conservation efforts for species that clearly need more help or "rescuing" ones in a place situation. Why make more for the sake of making more when there are countless of fish dying on the shelves or in the wild?"

Many aspects of fish showing (and animal breeding in general) can seem rather vain and pompous—you breed and get a few hundred babies and cull down to maybe a handfull following a narrow number of arbritrary and artificial measures of beauty. Is it fair for you to get to decide who stays, who goes; who lives, who dies; who has the right to breed (and with whom?), who doesn't? And all based on qualities that they were born with, have no control over, and cannot change?

I mean, it is not that black and white; I still aspire to breed and show bettas, but I can understand the sentiments on both sides.

Last edited by Fenghuang; 06-01-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:14 PM   #3 
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Point taken. Wild bettas are considered vulnerable because of habitat loss and crossbreeding with their domestic cousins.

Though breeders have sold animals that aren't show quality to pet homes.

Fish are popular in Asia. I've seen one documentary about a giant goldfish/carp that lives in Cambodia. They interviewed one fish owner who raises Koi and he had some beautiful fish. In Thailand there's roadside stands that sell bettas in jars. Many of them look like the ones on aquabid.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:19 AM   #4 
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I think most people have problems with dog breeding because they breed in a narrow gene pool which leads to dogs with major problems. Personally even though I like certain breeds, I would never go to a breeder in a million years because the are so many dogs in shelters and pounds that need homes.
Puppy mills also gave dog breeders a bad rap.
I think fish are easier to ignore. They aren't considered pets by most people and they don't care as much, if at all, when a fish dies in a cup. Personally, I think people should try to do their best when breeding animals to make sure the animal isn't mistreated by the store they're selling to and as consumers we shouldn't buy from places that mistreat their animals. Any of their animals!
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:57 AM   #5 
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Noted. Though there are breeders who acquire both males and females from other lines to keep theirs diverse and prevent inbreeding. But you're right many good breeders have been lumped in with puppy mills which several consider an insult.

I usually get my bettas from aquarium stores who get their bettas directly from breeders. Some petstore chains do care for their fish, others don't. I found a betta at a Petco who had severe fin rot. I did report it but one fish store I went to never sell sick fish. They treat them until they are well enough to be sold.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:01 AM   #6 
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What does that have to do with anything?

I know someone who breeds black labs - championship blood line on the hunting side. The dogs are sold, but raised by him until they are old enough to be sent out for proper hunting training. THEN the dogs are handed over to their owners. I have no problem whatsoever with this, because he is responsibly creating dogs for a purpose. Should a dog not work out he takes possession of it and finds it a new home. Not hard to do with such a pedigree and level of training.

Then there is the previous owner of my 2 dogs. She had unwanted breeding going on right in her house - wound up with 40 dogs and had to give some away.

My point here is that there are A LOT of good dogs out there that need homes. Unless you are breeding to fill a niche demand (hunting, or propagation of specific breeds like Tibetan mastiffs or whatever), I just can't see the justification of bringing more dogs into the world when we already have such a vast surplus. Granted, rescues aren't for everyone....however, there are puppies that need to be rescued too.

Last edited by jaysee; 06-02-2014 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:40 PM   #7 
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I assume most of the backlash (for dogs anyway) is more on the "backyard breeder" end of things.

I try to suggest to as many people I know of wanting a dog to please go and adopt one from a shelter. If you're set on a purebred of some sort - spend the money and get one from a reputable breeder that pays very close attention to lines and gene traits, and are devout members of the AKC or CKC.
I bought my golden retriever from a "backyard breeder" because we wanted a purebred, and he was only $400 vs $1500 from a "top line" breeder.
My dog, I love him to death, but he has cost us more than we can add up. He has terrible allergies - skin problems, ear infections, you name it. Talking to my local groomer, almost every dog that came from that "breeder" has skin problems, she wishes they would stop breeding dogs.
So of course we love him, and are spending hundreds of dollars a month on food and allergy serum... but the more people buy from places like that, the more they breed.

simple supply and demand.

But I digress, save a life from a shelter....
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:10 PM   #8 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysee View Post
My point here is that there are A LOT of good dogs out there that need homes. Unless you are breeding to fill a niche demand (hunting, or propagation of specific breeds like Tibetan mastiffs or whatever), I just can't see the justification of bringing more dogs into the world when we already have such a vast surplus. Granted, rescues aren't for everyone....however, there are puppies that need to be rescued too.
Couldn't have said it better.
I am not anti-breeders per se. Just anti irresponsible breeders and pro adoption. I have a few friends here who are able to foster rescue dogs until they get adopted. It's heart breaking to see how many they can't save.

My LFS lost my business when I saw how they were treating their fish. Terrible conditions. Now I go to Petco for everything when I would normally shop locally. It's across town but I can't support a business who treats animals that poorly.
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:35 PM   #9 
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Point taken.

Then there's cases where people have bought a dog from what they thought was a breeder website and when they went to the airport, there was no dog.

It's happened to several people and one guy in New York actually tracked down the person who took his money. After that experience he recommended if people buy a dog from a breeder, meet the person face-to face.

I've actually seen some nice bettas for sale online but my biggest concern would be picking up the fish and it was DOA even if the seller offered a replacement or a refund.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:24 PM   #10 
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I was over on a dog forum this morning (I think it's affiliated/linked to from this forum) and there were people asking about what sort of flack those with purebred dogs get from other owners and I was surprised by how many said they had.

We own three purebred German Shepherds and no one has ever reproached me about my decision to purchase a puppy from a breeder while dogs languish in shelters. I suppose this may be because everyone is too busy trying to run away from our dogs to get too close.

What I don't understand with the anti-breeding crowd is that it is rare for dogs from a good breeder to end up on death row at the pound. Most have a safety net and while some do fall through the cracks, the best breeders actively help in the re-homing process and may even take dogs back themselves. Pounds are usually full of the products of backyard breeding. While some dogs in there may be 'purebred', I doubt they come from reputable breeding programs. Most of these are without papers, and seem to come from puppy farms or BYBs. I see it all the time, families who have two 'great' dogs and just want to breed them. Then the resulting puppies either get dumped off at the pound because no one wants them (funny how all those friends and relatives who tell you they want a puppy when the dog is pregnant suddenly vanish) or are purchased by people because they want a cute puppy and once that phase is over, they find themselves on Gumtree looking for a new home.

Therefore, why would I go to the pound and want to adopt someone else's mistake?

I mean a lot of breeds are simply notorious for bad hips. Good breeders screen their breeding stock and try to minimise the risk of this disease, but even that isn't foolproof. I mean one of ours is from a pedigree full of great hip scores, her siblings had excellent scores, and she has hip dysplasia. Why would I want to take the chance on a cross-breed that has had no screening, no health checks and could be carrying any plethora of genetic diseases? People always espouse 'hybrid vigor' (most commonly breeders of so called 'designer dogs'), but it is possible that you can end up with a dog that gets the worst of both worlds. Being a mutt is not going to magically save it from bad elbows and bad elbows.

I know because growing up we had a mutt that had terrible problems with her hind end and it was eventually what led to her death.

I've never had anyone tell me I was cruel for breeding fish. This is probably because many of the species I keep are highly endangered, and also because they would get an earful from me.

I personally do have issues with people throwing together two bettas with no forethought and no prior research on things like quality and marketability. If you want to breed, do it responsibly. Dogs can end up in bad places, but there are laws that help to prevent that. Fish routinely end up in worse places, and no one gives them more than a passing thought. Why bring a whole spawn of bettas into this world if their only future is a cold cup on a fish store shelf because you had no other options for homes?
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