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Old 04-26-2010, 12:57 AM   #21 
Mister Sparkle
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Originally Posted by TeenyTinyTofu View Post
The only problem I see, is the difference between telling someone a betta CAN live in 0.5 gallons of water, and saying it SHOULD live in 0.5 gallons of water.

Just because they can in the wild, does not mean that we shouldn't strive to give them a better habitat while they are in captivity. I see nothing wrong with guiding people towards a larger enclosure, such as 2.5 - 5 gallons, as opposed to telling them that a 1/2 gallon is perfectly suitable.
No, no!

You see, the difference isn't about anyone saying that they SHOULD be limited to small enclosures! There isn't a single person telling ANYONE that! Not anywhere!

The difference is in people saying that the 1/2-gallon is cruel, or even insufficient, treatment. You can go and observe any conversation with an experienced keeper discussing "conditions" with a "high-and-mighty" newbie, and it's NEVER about the experienced keeper "ADVISING" someone to keep the smallest container they can. It's about the newbie claiming that the larger aquarium is the ONLY thing that satisfies a fish's needs, and saying that anything SMALLER than a 5 gallon is "cruel", or even claiming that it "only provides for the 'minimum' needs". Nothing can be farther from the truth!

To completely obliterate all of your claims about "space," all you need to do is drop a healthy betta into a 29-gallon aquarium by itself. Good water, good temps, and lots of space...all conditions are pointing to an ideal enclosure for a betta. So why is your betta hiding in the substrate, flashing, and exhibiting basically every symptom in the book for stress?????? I've NEVER seen a betta in one of my 1- or 2-gallons doing this! NEVER!!!!!!!!

No one is advising AGAINST having a 2.5 or 5-gallon aquarium for a betta. But claims that this size is "better for the fish", or "the minimum size for the fish", are completely unfounded and simplistic. Bettas are hardy fish, which is why new keepers are more likely to get one! They are forgiving to a great many mistakes that new aquarists will make. Guess what? So are larger aquariums! So, hey, if you want to advise someone to get a larger aquarium...FINE! But do it for the RIGHT REASONS!

False analogies and other crap aside, a 1/2-gallon or 1-gallon nano-quarium can be a VERY successful venture. It's just hard to maintain. I'm "road-testing" a 10-watt Marineland aquarium heater right now...all signs point to it being a MAJOR headway into taking a great deal of the problems out of nano-keeping in one fell swoop (79-degrees and holding in a 1-G nano)! This doesn't remove the water-quality requirements of keeping fish or anything, but it has always been a major obstacle to those of us who like to keep "nanos". My fish live for long as your average betta (no matter how big their aquarium is!). They are healthy, active, and responsive. They pace, build bubble-nests, eat and exhibit all the same signs of a healthy betta that you would expect! Don't you DARE call the care I provide "insufficient" or "cruel". Whether it's a 1-gallon or a 20-gallon, NEGLECTING minimal weekly water changes and FAILING to provide adequate filtration, water changes or hiding places is the only cruelty we need to be wary of! Many a betta in a 10-gallon standard aquarium I've seen are much more neglected than mine, or many others in "bowls" or 1-gallon nano's!

Right now, I have a betta in a 3-cup nano...and I am doing 100% twice-daily's on his water. Personally, I woudln't keep this going for any extended period of time AT ALL! But it IS SUFFICIENT! And it frees up a pair of "hospitals" for guppies who are suffering from "the shimmy's". This is something betta owners don't really have to worry about. Bettas are hardy and almost immune to many of the illnesses that other fish are prone to getting. If you can keep your betta happy and warm without dealing with excess waste building up in his enclosure, it can live AND THRIVE! I have a bubble nest in that 3- cup nanoquarium already...that tells me that I know what I'm doing! Yet, I already LOST three guppies to "the shimmy's"...that sucks! I have to do what I have to do. The guppies live in a's not about the space. Sometimes, it's a combination of luck and pesky bugs not showing themselves until the quarantine has passed! Even after all this time, I'm still learning lessons. But those lessons aren't revolving around the bettas anymore!

Just watch...if you ADVISE someone toward a larger aquarium for the sake of easier keeping and more stable water quality/temperatures and EVEN opining that YOUR BETTAS like their 2.5-5 gallon aquariums a lot, you won't hear a PEEP FROM ME! 8) HOWEVER, if you accuse that person of being cruel to their fish, or saying that they are BARELY meeting the minimum requirements for their fish, I'm going to give you a piece of my mind! Like I've said many times before, do it for the RIGHT REASONS! If someone is keeping a "nano", and isn't interested in upgrading despite your advice that the 2.5-gallong would be in their best interests, send them my way! I'm happy to try to help them!

This OP wasn't about what you think it was. It was about the fact that, sometimes, you have to ditch your own advice and defer to the person that can help the new keeper TRY to succeed at the path they have already chosen. I'd rather do whatever I can do to try to make sure they can provide an optimal home for their fish, rather than acting as a walking advertisement for Wal-Mart. I'd be hard-pressed to find a thread where you HAVEN'T tried to advertise the Wal-Mart aquarium...are you working for them or something?????

If the new keeper doesn't want to do AT LEAST once-weekly water changes, they shouldn't even be considereing keeping fish in "nano's". Heck, they shouldn't be trying to keep fish AT ALL if they aren't willing to do at least this much! Yet, if they ARE considering a nanoquarium, they need to know what it takes to maintain it. And, if someone DOES know what it takes to maintain the 1-gallon or similarly sized aquarium, the last thing they need is your sense of superiority telling them that they are cruel for doing so!
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:15 AM   #22 
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:43 AM   #23 
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Oh god talk about a rant.


Mister Sparkles, since I actually read your post (you might want to consider remaking a summary if you really want your point across), you make good points, and I can see where you're pointing at. I'd ask a question - would this include me? If you aren't aware, I am in great favor of larger tanks for - yes, the size. Although "complaining about size" wasn't highly established in your full-on-rant (or at least, not in the "it doesn't have enough room to swim" sense), I still am against 1/2 gallons for - yes *gasp* their size! However, on the deal with being able to keep up with water changes, keeping temperature stable and high, and all those basic needs for life, I couldn't agree more. Water changes temperature, etc, etc, etc, is the basis of life for any fish in a small aquarium. If I saw someone with a 1 gallon, I will only slightly judge - or feel insecure - if they are a newcomer. Until I hear of their great water schedule and their succesful feats at keeping their tank warm, shall I rest in peace. But if anything, if I hear "isn't that a lot of work", I refrain myself from everything.You don't know how many times I've had to bite my tongue to be nice. (But I'm not THAT mean, lol! I promise!)

I'll make a few comments here and there.

The "dropping a betta into a 29 gallon", we both know the issue would be lack of adequate planting. A plain 29 gallon, why yes, you'll see just that. In a HEAVILY dense planted tank, you won't see anything remotely close. Oh, and heating and water changes.

Let's not cause an argument over this, but I just have to say this: The only "sense" of "minimum size" is for, well for me, swimming space. I cannot sleep thinking my betta cannot swim as much as they do right now in their divided. Well, they swim a lot. And I'm so happy for them. I can't bare anymore, to cut down an inch of that space. But this, is my own opinion, and I hope you, Mister Sparkles, can respect that. Just know I still understand where you come from 100%. I'm not completely that ignorant, am I? Haha.

I don't mind you keeping your bettas in small enclosure. I trust you like I'd trust a breeder - You're keeping their spaces VERY clean. You heat them as adequately as can be, there's nothing I could really ask for in a small enclosure. Except *hacks cough* ;) But ignore that.

Okay, the Walmart tank. That's easy to explain. Uh - it's a 5 gallon...with a filter...and a hood...and plants...and who knows what else (they're useless for us betta keepers though)...for THIRTY dollars? Le gasp! (Unless it's second hand or on sale, the only other 5 gallon I've seen are the hexes, or the Marineland(?), for at LEAST $45). Now, at this point, it is for the sake of cutting down money, and allowing our brand new fish keeper a larger tank, and being able to breathe a little by cutting down their water change time. Didn't you also say not all new fishkeepers are willing to do those water changes? Two birds, one stone. Cheap, larger more manageable tank. And that's why we recommend that tank. But dear god, I would never work for walmart. Ahaha...

Amen to the last paragraph.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:24 AM   #24 
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I never, anywhere in my post, said that half gallon containers were cruel. I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I did call them sub-par...which, to me on the subject of space, they are when compared to a slightly larger enclosure. Note that I said slightly. I'm not sitting here shouting that bettas need mansions. Twenty-nine gallons, really? Your example of too much space is almost as stupid as my "cat in the closet" example, which I admit does not apply. In case you haven't noticed, there's a big difference between two, five, and ten and....twenty-nine.

The point I'm driving is that having a little more space is plus and therefore something to consider if someone has the spare space and money. Especially since many new fish keepers do not want to be doing water changes every two or three days. In fact, I believe I said that if someone properly cares for a betta in a half gallon enclosure that that's wonderful.

If you can keep your pet in a half gallon container, care for it well and in the end have a healthy, thriving fish: That's wonderful.
Wow. I did say that!

I have never criticized anyone on these forums (or off them, for that matter) for using a smaller bowl or tank and I have never called someone cruel for choosing to keep their fish that way. I do offer suggestions on affordable larger tanks in case someone would like to follow that route, as many do...and guess what? Even though I do not work there, Wal mart does have low prices and affordable kits that are reccomended by not just myself, but many others around here. I have also suggested second hand tanks (does that mean I work for Craigslist?) and Kritter Keepers (I don't work for them either).

I have kept bettas in bowls and kritter keepers and had healthy, thriving bettas. I know that they can be properly kept under those circumstances. However, having also kept them in tanks where they have more space, I find that that is my personal preference and when asked for input I will share that preference.
In any case, it is a preference that many others on this forum share. I'm not (and neither is anyone else in this thread) waving picket signs and calling you a monster, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped acting as such.

Last edited by TigerLily; 04-26-2010 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:24 AM   #25 
Mister Sparkle
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@xxabc...from what I've seen so far, your recommendations are made for the RIGHT REASONS! I don't have any problems with your recommendations, especially as they apply to new keepers!

@tigerlily...I wasn't responding to you, or trying to put words in your mouth!

As long as your recommendations are made with the RIGHT REASONS in mind, you and I will never have a problem!

Last edited by dramaqueen; 04-26-2010 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:51 AM   #26 
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Who do you have a problem with then? No one in this thread has said that a properly maintained small enclosure is "cruel". Yet throughout your post you keep focusing on some yet undefined "you".

"This OP wasn't about what you think it was."
"Don't you DARE call the care I provide "insufficient" or "cruel"."
"the last thing they need is your sense of superiority telling them that they are cruel for doing so!"

Last edited by TigerLily; 04-26-2010 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:01 AM   #27 
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Everyone has their own opinions and ideas. What works for one person may not work for another. I think there are always going to be arguemets over tank size but I think that whats most important is how well we take care of our bettas, small tanks or big tanks.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:05 AM   #28 
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Originally Posted by Kittles View Post

Omg, you are the best.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:21 AM   #29 
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Originally Posted by dramaqueen View Post
Everyone has their own opinions and ideas. What works for one person may not work for another. I think there are always going to be arguemets over tank size but I think that whats most important is how well we take care of our bettas, small tanks or big tanks.
I completely agree.

I personally wouldn't keep my betta in something smaller then 2g permanently. I just don't think they have enough space.

Here's an example: You have a betta in a 1/2g, it's fins start to curl. If you have a betta in a 2g, chances are it's fins won't curl. Fins often curl because they are in too small of a tank. This is not always the reason, but very often it is. Does that say something about small tanks being bad?

Most newbies don't know how often they are going to have to change the water in a little "Betta Kit" tank. Then the fish gets sick. Not to mention heating. Obviously, they can't just be at "Room temperature" I mean, who keeps their house at 80 degrees constantly??? (Other then my grandma LOL)

I'm not saying that all small tanks are bad, it's just not the best for the fish in the long run.

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Old 04-26-2010, 11:32 AM   #30 
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I do find 1/2 tanks cruel. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. And when I see someone new keeping their betta in a 1/2 gallon container, I will nicely tell them that they should upgrade to something a bit bigger, so that the fish can have more room to swim. Like I said, just because they CAN live in a 1/2 gallon of water, doesn't mean they SHOULD. My opinion only. And I will continue to state my opinion. If Mister Sparkles doesn't agree with my opinion, he doesn't have to read it. But my opinion won't just change because a new member joins the board and rants and raves because he has a different opinion.
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