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Old 07-04-2010, 11:58 PM   #11 
dramaqueen
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I do believe in buying from a reputable breeder because then you know what you're getting and they are more likely to be healthy. I know several people whom I suspect got their dogs from puppy mills. One lives across the street from me. Angel is a sweet dog and very smart but has never realoly been healthy, though part of it is her stupid owner's fault.Another neighbor got a Sheltie from a petstore and he died from some genetic disease about 9 months after they got him.
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:30 AM   #12 
frogipoi
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I'm wealthy and have a lot of space so I could breed but where would they go! In a cup to go to a pet store.
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Old 07-05-2010, 06:31 PM   #13 
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Let me start out by saying a couple of things.

1. Don't repost information copied from other sources that you don't have permission to take. I'm sure the original writer of the text in the OP's post would be happy to know that you're just trying to help--but next time you should get proper permission before posting a piece of someone else's article.

2. I don't mean to attack you, Oldfishlady, I think you're a very experienced betta keeper, and I respect your willingness to help people with their problems and pass on useful information about betta husbandry. You are perfectly welcome to have your own point of view on this particular subject, but I must disagree with many parts of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
You make good points and I agree to a point, however, any and all the problems you listed can still occur in well bred Betta with attach genetic as it will in the mutts that most people buy at their local shop.
You're right--but you have a much better chance of getting high quality offspring from high quality fish. "Quality" aside, you have a much higher chance of getting what you want if you know whether or not the fish carries genes like red loss, for instance. Many use the red loss genes for making beautiful whites, but if you breed a fish carrying red loss into a red line, you're going to get really ugly browns and messy cellophanes.

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Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
IMO-I don't think it is fair to compare housing needs in domestic fish-vs-wild fish, the longfinned Betta we buy today is in no way looks like its wild cousin, this is a man-made fish of sorts, you won't see a long finned betta we have today in the wild unless someone put it their.
The Betta in-a-cup are only meant to be temporary homes just as the overstock display tanks other species of fish are housed and sold from.
This is true, but this change has mostly been a behavioral one. Domestic betta splendens are more aggressive than their wild cousins, they have different colors and a variety of finnage forms. That doesn't mean they don't need heat, or clean water, or behavioral enrichment. I know that you understand this because you so often advocate stringent water changing routines and proper heating as I do. I'm puzzled as to why you would make this statement given your previous posts.

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Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
Regardless of breeding lines of the fish I am of the opinion that everyone should spawn "responsibly" at least one species of egg laying fish while enjoying this hobby and IMO store bought fish are fine to use unless you plan to show and if you are wanting to show....join the IBC and your local Betta club.
And-resale can be equally hard regardless in my experience unless you have a plan and connections.
Whaaaat? I don't mean to be rude but I firmly disagree with this statement. You should never breed an animal simply because you can--that is the definition of irresponsible. I do not believe that you are missing out on anything by not breeding fish, or any other animal for that matter. Like 1fish2fish said, it's no different from the selfish backyard breeders that have oversaturated this continent with unwanted animals, many of which have deformities that could easily have been avoided, like double merle dogs, for instance.

I don't believe you should breed pet store bettas because the quality of their care has likely been low, their age is questionable, and you don't know what you'll get. The reason people should have in their mind when they breed fish is to improve the species betta splendens through a proliferation of positive traits that contributes to the aesthetic appeal and overall health of the next generation. There are plenty of breeding facilities cranking out these fish at such a high rate that thousands die on shelves every day. Why make more of these bettas?


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Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
I do disagree with the age of the fish in the pet store, growth and development in masses for re-sale are much faster than you think, most Betta on the shelf are closer to 3-6 months of age and prime for breeding, (my home spawned males are near fully finned by 3-4 months of age and females bred at 4 months).They are mass produced for the re-sale market and the longer they keep and feed them the less profit they will make, turn-over is fast, growth is fast, sometimes too fast and this is often why we see so many problems, you have a baby in an adults body, however, you also have to think about the life cycle, they don't live for 25 years and so they have to grow fast, reproduce young before their life cycle ends and this can be as young as 1 year to 3 years.
There is somewhat of a range, though. Veiltails and crowns in particular are often considerably older because the quality of their finnage improves so much after they are allowed to mature. Either way, the point is that you just don't know how old they are, and if you've had the fish for awhile, they're probably past their breeding prime. I was always under the impression that all breeders grow out their fish as fast as possible with tons of water changes and high protein foods. Common practice.

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Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
I for one- don't want to be controlled and told I shouldn't or that it is a bad idea to do something because its not pure bred or unknown genetic, how do you think we got what we have now, someone experimented and made them and still do. Why should a hobbyist be criticized for our own experimenting to create something beautiful and new as long as we are responsible and have a plan.
IMO-nothing wrong with the store bought fish and they are fine for spawning and for pets, some even show quality, maybe you don't know the genetic background and maybe you will have some duds but soon you will know the lines just as the ones that come with a piece of paper that you hope is a true statement and an honest breeder, not all are...mutts can be beautiful...just look at your Betta......they don't know they are mutts....and who are they that call them mutts.....they are 100% Betta after all and someone knows whos their daddy....
They all started some place and why not start some place at your place
I believe this post is mostly aimed at beginners in the hobby that get their first few fish from the store and they think "Wow, my guy is so beautiful, and his personality is great! Wouldn't it be nice to have a bunch of little hims running around?" Mutts are beautiful, they have wonderful personalities and I would never consider owning otherwise. However, you will end up culling a lot of fish by starting with "mutts" in order to get what you want. If you start with high quality fish and breed with a goal in mind, you potentially lower the risk of proliferating hidden x factor genes, and create more saleable fish that you can experiment with just the same--but more predictably. You'll potentially save a lot time, effort, money, and fish's lives this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfishlady View Post
I do agree-that if you do opt to spawn to do it responsibly and have a plan and to be aware that you may not make any money, in fact it may cost you a lot more than you make and if you are lucky you may get store credit at a local pet shop at a rate of 10 cents a fish and 1 dollars if they are special. Yes, they will be kept in a small temporary cup and they may die in that cup from poor water quality at the pet shop or in someones home, sadly that is part of breeding any live animal..once out of your hands anything can happen, you have no control.
And breeding involves death and culling of the unwanted and deformed and if you can't do that you don't need to be breeding any live animal, too soft of heart can lead to an animal suffering and that is cruel. Life and death issues/choices are never easy and a breeder has to make these hard choices everyday.
Yes, you are right--no one getting into breeding should expect to make money. They should expect to lose much more than they make--bettas are a work of love, and a work of living art. There is a dark side to it though, and that is the fact that inevitably breeders must cull undesirable or deformed fish. By starting with healthier stock whose genetic histories you know, you can minimize this. If you have space constraints, you can remove the female before she releases all her eggs in order to create a smaller spawn, so that you don't have tons of babies you can't take care of or place. Breeding more desirable fish will hopefully increase your turnover rate if you are breeding to sell.

Personally, I would never sell my babies to a pet store that kept them in cups. You cannot ultimately control the fate of the offspring, but as the person who helped bring them into the world, I feel that it is your responsibility to protect them. Putting them in the position to die in a pet store is irresponsible, in my opinion. This is a huge reason why I will never intentionally breed any animal I own. Ever. There is no need for more bettas in the world.

If you want another fish, go to a store. Look on craigslist or in your local animal shelter. You'll get a fantastic pet and you'll be part of the solution instead of becoming part of the problem.
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:46 PM   #14 
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Adastra, you have the right to your opinion as do I...with that said......

I stand by my opinion/experience and I live in the real world along with all its ugly parts, sadly everything must die.
I advocate the pet store fish as this is what most people can afford to buy and start out with.
In attempts to control one surroundings one can lose sight of the big picture "to learn by doing" and "to grow"
To encourage breeding encourages learning with a better understanding of life and different species within this hobby...to grow and to stay in this hobby long term..not just a couple of dead fish with the tank in the trash and give up....we are losing hobbyist which in turn is hurting the hobby and encouragement needs to be made to keep interest up and growth- breeding and sharing with others is but one way to encourage new hobbyist to stay/grow in this awesome hobby.
You can't save them all and some will die...that is Life......

And I hope you will at least agree-that there is more than one way to successfully keep fish and breed fish even if it differs from yours......


Sorry for the hijack.......

"This will be my last post on this thread"
If you wish to debate lets take this to PM's
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:40 PM   #15 
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I think this thread is ignoring many important facts about fish development by blaming most deformities in fry due to age and genetics of parents and focusing on how mutts will have more problems. Developmental problems and deformities are just as much environmental as genetic. Temperature is a HUGE factor in spinal deformities for example alone. Oldfishlady is right in saying deformities can occur in pures just as much as mutts anyone with knowledge of developmental physiology in fish will know this. Also you may think pures are better BUT what do you need to get pures....inbreeding....every time you inbreed a strain you are reducing the strains vigor....you know it is a double edge sword with these things. Look at all the problems human introduced to pure bred dogs....the same with our domesticated strains of fish for food. Yes you can breed certain disease out, but you also have inadvertently introduced new problems. Genes are complicated and not so easily controlled.

I am not choosing either side...just saying there is a good and bad to everything. I think as long as someone researches fine...I do think giving them to a pet store should be avoided though,,,all that hard work to see your babies suffer wouldn't be very fun.

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Old 07-11-2010, 06:34 PM   #16 
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I think someone posted it already, But yes you still get deformities but not near as many.

The other thing is when you see these beautiful fish on AB that you would die for. Well they lock in that by inbreeding a little and it locks it in so they dont have to fight to get more to look like that picture perfect betta they inbreed a little. Of course to much inbreeding will cause all sort of problem's but thats why you buy from respectable breeders and pet store bettas are far from that pet store breeders are far from that im sure you might find a couple that care if you get lucky.

Which is easier to sell which is more desirable the pure breed the one with paper's? Or a betta that you dont no anything about genetic's age background nothing.. OR the one's That have line paper's, You want to find out what the grandfather of your betta look's like contact your reputable breeder if you have one they will have spawn log's and pictures all on file. I started my log last year when i registered and bought IBC bettas.

I didnt think there would be a big deal over this thread. If you care about the breed, If you care about the future of the fish, If you want to better the fish, If you want to do something about the betta in a cup. Then there shouldnt be a big deal about this thread. If almost everyone starts buying from good breeder's who care about the fish and deserve the money then there wont be a market for the betta in a cup. There wont be none of these bettas getting put on shelves for 5 of them to sell and 10 to die.
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:36 PM   #17 
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I no you still face some problem's with a pure betta but atleast we are going in the right direction and saving a lot of them.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:15 PM   #18 
frogipoi
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I hate arguments! Just PM a person! Threads are not a place to argue! This is a place is a place to discuss.
Not ever going on this thread again! Remove it from subscribed and peace out!
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:56 PM   #19 
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I didn't think anyone is arguing, We a just talking about the topic on the fourm that got started. I don't think anything said is bad to where it needs to be PM.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:18 PM   #20 
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It is just general discussion of opinions and facts very friendly.
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