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Old 09-26-2010, 10:18 PM   #11 
MrVampire181
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But in the next generation of breeding the males aren't as aggressive during spawning....shows some potential.

Agree with 1f2f.

I actually like having jars full of flaring males. Sure it's more work but 100% worth it.

Last edited by MrVampire181; 09-26-2010 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:27 PM   #12 
carpenter547
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truethfully the color change and jars came about at the same time. our colorful bettas are flukes that would have died in the wild. we as people said yaay lets take this fish make it fight more and wow look we can change thier colors lets do that i want my champions to be purple all over so every one knows they are mine.

if our splendis behavior were to be moved to the peaceable side you would see a natural flaring and strutting of them durring mating rituals not at every thing.

and the reference was to the rape stand taking the females choice out of the breeding process. just the same as we do by only indroducing one male of our choosing with one female of our choosing. to be more specific it is the same process the plantation owners used with thier slaves.

we have removed all predation and sexual selection from the breeding and species and replaced them with human selection for a few hundred years.

it is not natural for animals in the wild to fight to the death for any reasons other than eating defending offspring and defending it's own life.

the fighting and the display are both unrelated as are the agression and the color.
saying that bettas need to be aggressive to have great colors is like saying all black dogs bite.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:38 PM   #13 
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Wild bettas do fight. Only mouthbrooders are somewhat peaceful.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:41 PM   #14 
nochoramet
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I wouldn't want to make bettas unaggressive. That would be a totally different fish. Part of their charming personalities is the aggression, flaring at stuff and strutting their looks. I'm sure it would go against their very nature. I don't know much about it, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:52 PM   #15 
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i know vamp i didn't say that they didn't fight i stated that it wasn't to the death that is all. and generally speaking once a fight is given up by one animal or the other.

generally this is how breeding and sexual selection goes.
1 males fight with males to control either turf or potential mates.
2 females establish a hierarchy or turf.
3 the best males then have to convince the best females to let them have thier fun.

then natural selection kicks in.
1 only proper gene sequences form into a compete organisim.
2 only workable organisims survive child hood.
3 only workable organisims achieve adult hood.
4 only healthy organisims can win fights for turf or dominance.

then it is back to sexual selection.

we as human beings have completely circumvented this process.

step one we get the best most agressive fish to fight each other.
step 2 we get the prettiest of the champions to mate and make pretty ones.

that is it.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:09 PM   #16 
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By breeding them to be non-aggresive you are just as bad for breeding them to be more aggresive. You are selectively breeding them as slaves, dogs and all other things you have compared them to, to change their nature and make them into a community fish when by nature they are not community fish!
I guess that makes florists horrible people when they graft flowers to make prettier ones? And I would hope you dont have a cat or dog either, because they have been bred to be that way too.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:26 PM   #17 
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no no no you misunderstand.

my statement is that we have removed nature from the equation. the betta is entirely a human creation. so the argument that we are making them go against thier nature is self defeating. so with the argument against nature gone. there is only a few remaining arguements left for not doing it.
1 i like them like this *personal and valad*
2 it would take too long *a practical question*
3 it would diminish the colors *not so since we controlled the development of the colors*
4 it would remove the flaring *not true since that is part of mating*
5 it would change the breed *mabey a sub-breed possibly but not the breed since identifiers of the breed are physical not behavioral*

and i think that is it and there are the counter points all in one.

personally i love gm corn. pitbulls high yeild produce and our current farming scheme. i am not green at all nor a naturalist. or a hippy. i am not politically correct and i drive a presmog ford truck :) *btw it gets 15 mpg which is better than comparable modern models* and i love glowfish i only wish they are available in california.

Last edited by carpenter547; 09-26-2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason: glowfish remark
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:31 PM   #18 
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Yeah, I agree with Cj. You can only mimic nature. You say people are taking natural selection out of the equation. Anyone breeding these fish is taking natural selection out of the equation whether breeding for aggression or passivity. None of us are Mother Nature.

And you can't compare what breeders do to dogs to how you breed bettas. These fish have a choice. Many of them DON'T breed. We have tons of failures in threads in our breeders forum. There's no way to force a fish to mate. They always choose. You can stack the odds in your favor but you can't physically force them to mate like you're talking about people doing with rape stands. It's nowhere NEAR the same.

Either way, you're not breeding by natural selection. You can only imagine what nature would intend for these fish in the wild. You don't know what would happen. You don't know what the best traits would be. You only want to see your version of the fish, just like others want to see their version. Neither side is right or wrong, just different.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:36 PM   #19 
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+1 for VG and Cj
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:41 PM   #20 
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again refer to previous post i never claimed any thing should be natural. i meerly pointed out that nature has been removed from the equation. and no the fish don't have as much of a choice as you are insinuating that they do. basically all females are born with a window in which to reproduce either a number of years to live or a number of fertile years or just a number of eggs. the point is they only have a limited chance to fulfill their need to reproduce. so yeah they may choose to not drop eggs due to an unknown defect seen by her but not by us however we severly reduce what she is exposed to and allowed to breed with at a certain point she will drop the eggs even for a genetically flawed male *proof is bright red bettas and purple etc.* there isn't much of a choice which is why i brought up plantation owners *not to remark about subjectgation but to point out the lack of options* yes the slave ladies could have said no but after a certain point she has to just go with it cuz the alternative becomes worse than the current option.

my statement was since we have been doing it for so long what good factual reason is there to not do it a different way?
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