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Old 11-07-2011, 09:36 AM   #1 
bhannon
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Velvet and ick?

I have Betta fish who definitely had velvet and is still on treatment and is recovering very well. I've been watching his fins because they have been clamped and they started to go back to normal last night. This morning i notice little white spots all over him. But the medicine he is on for the velvet also treats ick so how is this happening? And one of his fins that was clamped the most seemed to have broken off. This isn't fin rot. Its like it just ripped off.

Does anyone know whats going on with him?

Hes in a heated tank about 80 82 degree with a filter
he has 2 tank mates a dwarf frog and a sucker fish (they all dont even interact. half the time i swear they aren't even aware there's something else living with them)
hes in a 5.5 gallon tank
The whole tank is being treated with Mardel coppersafe for the velvet.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:21 PM   #2 
Gamma
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welcome to the forum's!
First I would take him out and put him in a quaratine tank. I can get you instructions for a home made one if you need it. Now treat him with some aquarium salt a table spoon per gallon but I would go a little shy. If possble keep the quaratine tank heated. 100% change it every other day until the velvet/ick is gone. If you need more help message me.

Also I would do a complete water change in the 5.5 galon tank because dwarf frogs are very senstive to copper.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:20 PM   #3 
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Not a table spoon for AQ salt, that is very much over dosing.. you want 1 teaspoon.. up to 3 teaspoon at the most when using AQ salt. Also you should do daily 100% water changes when they are in medications such as the salts (AQ and Epsom). If you have him in a tablespoon, please remove him immediately and don't use AQ salt with the medication you have him on currently.

You can treat Velvet the same as Ick- you also have to treat the whole tank for ick. Use medicine safe for your other animals in there, put your betta in a small QT container, tupperware or a 1 gal is fine. (I say this because you believe he has velvet)- pictures would be helpful in validating :)

Treatment: You can treat Ick either conservatively or with medication. Ick is a parasite. Because ick is contagious, it is preferable to treat the whole tank when one fish is found to have it. Ick is temperature sensitive: Leave your betta in the community tank and raise temperature to 85 F. Then you can choose to treat with salt or medication. Conservative: Add 1 tsp/gal Aquarium Salt 3 times, 12 hours apart so that you end up with 3 times the normal concentration (3 teaspoons). Perform daily 100% water changes to remove fallen parasites before they can reproduce. Replace the water with the right amount of salt. Do not continue this treatment for more than 14 days. If it fails or you do not want to use salt, treat with Jungle’s Parasite Clear, API Super Ick Cure, or Kordon Rid Ich Plus. If your betta lives in a jar/bowl, then it can be difficult to heat the water. There are heaters for smaller containers, but you can also float the quarantine container in a larger heated tank during treatment. Do a full water change every day and add an appropriate amount of medication to the water.

Gamma, your help is very much appreciated and don't stop! Just be careful what you tell people, make sure you tell them the appropriate treatments, otherwise more harm can be done to their fish.
AQ salt will easily harm their organs, such as causing kidney failure if over used/exposed.. so you have to be careful is all. Not trying to be mean or rude, just make sure you double check before giving out info- there are a couple stickies up top with treatments to help guide :)

Last edited by Myates; 11-07-2011 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:26 PM   #4 
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I know my Betta has/d velvet and the whole tank is being treated because of it. I've seen a lot of improvement in my betta (Lava). His fins are now unclamping. The medicine I'm using says right on it that it also treats ick so its weird that he would get ick while on medicine treating it... These white dots don't look exactly ick tho. They are raised and perfectly spherical and there a lot (i mean like 12) on his chin and about 10 on his body and maybe 1 or 2 on his fin. They are quite large. The sucker fish (Bisel) doesn't have these spots and my frog (Peek-a-boo) doesn't either. Could it have anything to do with his tail like ripping off? Oh and my frog is showing no signs of being sick or anything from the medicine. Hes growing a ridiculous amount and eating very healthily.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:17 AM   #5 
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It sounds exactly like ich- small white grains looking like grains of salt. As well as with the amount you are saying. A picture would prove/disprove the ick so you would know for sure.
Do be careful with medications and scaleless fish/frogs.. some could harm them. Don't use salt in your main tank as it will harm them.
As for unsure why ich started while on medication- a lot of medicines for ich doesn't always work, and with the stress of the medication use, it popped up - possibly.
There really is no other disease that resembles what you described other then ich.
How long have you been treating for velvet?

Velvet Disease is classified as a dinoflagellate. It is both a protozoan like the Ich parasites but contains Chlorophyll so it is also considered a type of algae. It survives by finding a stressed host and attaching itself mostly to the gill or fin tissue where it kills the cells and consumes the nutrients directly from the fish. If left untreated it often leads to death. Physically, Velvet looks like a gold, rust or yellow dust, finely sprinkled over the fish. In fact, it can be so difficult to see that often a flashlight is needed to reveal it. This shiny powder appearance has lead to many other names besides Velvet including Rust and Gold Dust Disease.
Besides seeing the parasites directly on your fish you may notice other symptoms including the telltale rubbing against rocks, gravel or other decor. This is common with external parasites and is an attempt by your fish to dislodge the pests from its body. As the disease develops, symptoms may worsen and include lethargy, loss of appetite, labored breathing and clamped fins.
Over a short time, the protozoa detach from their host and enter their free-swimming stage where they divide and multiply many times. This is when they are most vulnerable to medications but may not be obviously present in the tank. It is very important when medicating that you finish the entire course of treatment regardless of weather or not you still see the parasites present. Follow the directions on the medication package closely. Once the parasites multiply they must find a new host (or the same old one) within 24 hours to survive. Because of this life cycle it may appear that your fish has gotten better but really once the Piscinoödinium completes reproduction the worst is yet to come. Now many more protozoa are present in the water and waiting to attack your fish.
If diagnosed early, Velvet is fairly easy to treat. First, you should remove your betta and place him into a hospital tank away from any other fish. Oodinium is highly contagious and keeping the infected fish in a community tank can put others at risk. Make note, the medications for Velvet may be toxic to other species like some fish, snails, invertebrates and aquarium plants as well. Also, any filter media should be removed so as not to eliminate the medication from the water. Next, slowly raise the water temperature to 80˚F – 82˚F . Because you don’t want to further stress you fish, be sure to only increase the temperature by no more then 2˚F in a 24 hour period. A more rapid temperature fluctuation could cause additional harm. Reducing the amount of light getting into the tanks by keeping the hood lamp off and covering the tank may help to combat the parasites as well.

So it's good you got it early, but it's recommended to remove him into a QT tank.

Velvet: Sometimes viewable with the naked eye, sometimes you need a flashlight to see it clearly.
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Last edited by Myates; 11-08-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:46 AM   #6 
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I know he had velvet because a HM i had not even a month ago had it and the "dust" didn't appear until right before he died. The "dust" didn't appear on my betta now until 2 days after the treatment started. The only way i knew it was velvet was the behavior and the clamped fins. I started treating him on October 31 the same day i noticed his symptoms. He was laying at the bottom of the tank and had clamped fins and wouldn't eat. Thankfully now his fins are unclamped and hes got a healthy appetite. I dont have a camera to take a picture with but after looking at other people pictures these white dots are much larger than ick. These looks almost like pimples on him. Do you know why his tip of his big back tail broke off? hes a veil tail so the very tip of the big tail fin like ripped off after it became unclamped
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:54 AM   #7 
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I will do some more research to see what the other issue is, just in case.

Black tail- is his natural coloration black? Or have the fins gone black? It could be the bacterial form of fin rot, or due to the medicines. If his fins were anything but black, it may be that he formed rot and that would need to be addressed. Did you see it fall off or was it just missing? He may of chewed it off if you didn't see it.

Unfortunately, it could be a lot of things.. as well as with what is going on as being clamped, laying on the bottom is a sign for a large amount of problems. (Not saying he doesn't have velvet, but saying he could have another underlying problem as well).

Did you QT him? I would and continue the medication as you have been doing as it seems to be working for part of his problems- need to make sure velvet is taken care of first, as that is the deadliest. Just do it in a separate container then the home tank. The home tank I would do water changes over the next few days to get the medicines out for your other fish.
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:09 PM   #8 
bhannon
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i didnt QT him because if figured the whole tank would have the parasite. It was velvet tho cause there was dust on him but it didnt appear until 2 days after i started treatment. He is a red veil tail. The white dots are falling off. I noticed less of them today. The sucker fish and frog also in the tank are showing no signs of being sick or the white spots. The tank seems healthy for the most part
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:16 PM   #9 
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Okay.. I'd at least check to make sure the copper medicine is safe for your other fish- as usually some medications are for fish with scales, and it can have ill effect on other species if prolonged in treatment.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:16 PM   #10 
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hi!!!! so i think its turns out that my beta fish (crowntail) has ick AND velvet. i have a thread about his ick from before but now it turns out the blue shiny scales near the rear of his body to part of his tail is gold when i shine a flashlight on(i just checked 5 mins ago).and i'm currently treating him with his ick with 1ml of API's super ick cure(every other day) along with a pinch of salt every day and 50% water changes everymorning. (and all of the new fresh water has stress coat added to the tap water) WHAT SHOULD I DO?CONTINUE THIS OR WHAT? theres only a bit of gold below his head nd quite a bit by the end of his body in the area where the tail begins HELPPPP PLZ this is my first betta thank you :D
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