Betta Fish Care  
Go Back   Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care > Breeding Betta Fish
Check out the eBook Betta Fish Care Made Easy
betta fish
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-27-2011, 11:40 AM   #41 
Bettas Rule
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, TX
I think the most humane way to euthanize a betta is to feed it to another fish. I feed small fry to my larger bettas and larger fry to my cichlid. He knows why I am there and the fish is gone the second it hits the water. No pain no nothing just gone.

IMO, It's not OK to adopt out deformed fish just so that you don't have to feel like you did something wrong. If you are gonna bring life into this world you have a responsibility to ensure it's quality of life. Think of mother nature, she has no problem "culling" her creatures when they are born deformed. In fact most animal mothers will abandon or eat deformed babies. This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty. If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world. I really hope I don't offend anyone because that's not my intention I just want to stress how serious this is. Bringing life into this world is a HUGE responsibility and one that should not be taken lightly.

Doing the RIGHT thing, is often not the easiest thing to do.
Bettas Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 12:14 PM   #42 
ShyDog
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Iowa
I believe you're referring to her "adopt a cull" program. Honestly, just as with humans dogs any other pet there is "deformed but able to live a normal life" and "deformed to the point of cruelty". I believe the former is what is being talked about here. The reason all deformed fish would be culled is, just put up for sale like normal fish, they would obviously get looked over, and never sell. This way, people who have big hearts and want to take on the additional task of helping out a somewhat deformed but still functional fish, can do so knowingly.

I believe we can defer to the OP to know the difference between the two, and that they only have the best interest of their spawn at heart and intention.

also, all the following is in good humor, and I apologize on further thought if my tone comes off as anything but. No offense to anyone's opinions meant.

Random rant:
Pets as pertaining to the human race are not part of nature. We set them apart by making them dependent on us. Thus, they are also exempt from what would normally be a selective pressure. To be honest, I have seen many "deformed" (dogs with 3 legs, one eye, one ear or in one case completely blind) who lead normal happy lives, They do not deserve to be "put down" just because of their deformity. Just like you probably wouldn't want aunt Raz (sorry if anyone has an aunt Raz) Euthanized cause her hip is going a little wonky.

We choose to set ourselves apart from selective pressures that exist in the natural world and we extend that to our pets. (and by selective pressures I mean those of us who live with dissabilities but get along just fine where we would "die" in nature). It's a weak argument to bring in here, because of that.
...Lost my train of thought, guess I'll end it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettas Rule View Post
IMO, It's not OK to adopt out deformed fish just so that you don't have to feel like you did something wrong. If you are gonna bring life into this world you have a responsibility to ensure it's quality of life. Think of mother nature, she has no problem "culling" her creatures when they are born deformed. In fact most animal mothers will abandon or eat deformed babies. This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty. If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world. I really hope I don't offend anyone because that's not my intention I just want to stress how serious this is. Bringing life into this world is a HUGE responsibility and one that should not be taken lightly.

Doing the RIGHT thing, is often not the easiest thing to do.

Last edited by ShyDog; 11-27-2011 at 12:30 PM.
ShyDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 12:32 PM   #43 
Bettas Rule
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyDog View Post
I believe you're referring to her "adopt a cull" program. Honestly, just as with humans dogs any other pet there is "deformed but able to live a normal life" and "deformed to the point of cruelty". I believe the former is what is being talked about here. The reason all deformed fish would be culled is, just put up for sale like normal fish, they would obviously get looked over, and never sell. This way, people who have big hearts and want to take on the additional task of helping out a somewhat deformed but still functional fish, can do so knowingly.

I believe we can defer to the OP to know the difference between the two, and that they only have the best interest of their spawn at heart and intention.
This is what I said...Please read a post completely before you go on one of your rants and start making judgments.....
Quote:
This may sound cruel but the truth is, letting the animal grow up to suffer is the real cruelty. If you cant stand the thought of killing one of your fish for it's own benefit, you have no business in bringing life into this world.
One would assume by this post that I am referring to animals that would be suffering if kept alive......

Quote:
Random rant:
Pets as pertaining to the human race are not part of nature. We set them apart by making them dependent on us. Thus, they are also exempt from what would normally be a selective pressure. To be honest, I have seen many "deformed" (dogs with 3 legs, one eye, one ear or in one case completely blind) who lead normal happy lives, They do not deserve to be "put down" just because of their deformity. Just like you probably wouldn't want aunt Raz (sorry if anyone has an aunt Raz) Euthanized cause her hip is going a little wonky.

We choose to set ourselves apart from selective pressures that exist in the natural world and we extend that to our pets. (and by selective pressures I mean those of us who live with dissabilities but get along just fine where we would "die" in nature). It's a weak argument to bring in here, because of that.
...Lost my train of thought, guess I'll end it here.
I see that you are in the mood to vent....and that's fine...can you not do it in someone else's thread though ? We actually have a rant section to prevent this kind of thread jacking. I would be happy to discuss this topic with you but it's off topic and therefore not respectful to the OP. If you want to discuss this with me please feel free to create a thread about it. I would be happy to debate the subject with you respectfully. That means not referring to someone's opinion as a "weak argument". That's a rude and condescending comment.

Last edited by Bettas Rule; 11-27-2011 at 12:37 PM.
Bettas Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 12:39 PM   #44 
ShyDog
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Iowa
I did read your post completely, you mentioned no where specifically the program, only that it's cruel to instate such a program. And no, no judgments here. I do not see how I am off topic anymore than you have been. Your post contained no information on how to aid culling, or the easiest methods to do so only that the poster is "wrong" for having a way to save certain cull.
But, digression no need to keep derailing a thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettas Rule View Post
This is what I said...Please read a post completely before you go on one of your rants and start making judgments.....


I see that you are in the mood to vent....and that's fine...can you not do it in someone else's thread though ?
ShyDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 01:08 PM   #45 
BlakbirdxGyarados
Member
 
BlakbirdxGyarados's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Currently based in NJ
Just to throw this in here,

I've got a Painted Turtle who usually gets my and my granpa's culled guppies. While it's not only a quick way to cull, it's beneficial for Samm in that he gets a little more protein in his diet. We usually judge who to cull depending on how bad the deformity is and how well they'd thrive if they were given the chance to live longer... any that can live completely fine lives but have traits we don't want in future generations are kept in a separate tank, of course.

Example:
Guppy was born fine but grew up with a more and more obvious spinal deformity much like how a human can get scholiosis(sp?) - While she can never have kids, she eats well, swims just fine, and is not picked on by my grandfather's red dragon plakat or other Tequila Sunrises. She gets to live simply because she lives just about as normally as a non-deformed guppy.

Example:
Guppy is born without a swim bladder/cannot swim correctly without having to constantly move their other fins and are never at rest. - There were two of these type, a boy and a girl. While both were actually very pretty, they wouldn't have survived very well since they literally were unable to rest. Even while resting on a leaf at night, they still had to move their fins to balance themselves and keep even the lightest current from knocking them over. They were sent to Samm's tank to be culled by Samm's knife-like and swift beak. His way is the best way since he's fast enough to be humane.


I know I was talking about guppies here (I have not yet had a successful breeding spawn yet, nor can I start a spawn anymore with me leaving soon), but essentially it contributes to the discussion in that they're as tropical as bettas and, especially since the spawning is a lot easier to do, the culling goes by a lot more often.
BlakbirdxGyarados is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 01:17 PM   #46 
1fish2fish
Member
 
1fish2fish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Savannah, GA
A fish with a slight deformity that can still live a somewhat normal existence I see no issue with adopting out. I adopted a female with a curved spine for my sorority and you know what? She was the alpha and a very happy fish. Some breeders don't want to deal with finding homes so they just go straight to culling, but for the breeder who feels like the fish can have a normal life and has the time to find it an appropriate home, I see no issue in adopting them out.


As for what culling methods I use. For fry I prefer either smash and trash or give to my friend who has a large oscar. When I have to euthanize a fish I do clove oil only because I don't have the stomach to kill a pet that I'm attached to. I have frozen a fish out of necessity before and I can honestly say in my experience the fish was gone quicker and with less thrashing then in the clove oil but if the AVMA considers freezing inhumane I won't do it until I can find scientific proof that the fish does not suffer more than using one of the approved methods.
1fish2fish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 02:50 PM   #47 
dramaqueen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Texas
Culling is a pretty contraversial subject so let's be respectful of each others' opinions please, even if you don't agree. . I feel the same way Jackie does. If a fish has a slight deformity but can live a pretty normal life it can be adopted out. But fish with deformities that cause pain and suffering should be humanely culled.
dramaqueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 03:42 PM   #48 
Bettas Rule
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, TX
My question is how do you know the fish is not in pain when it has a spinal deformity. Many people have scoliosis and are in constant pain.
This is a quote from a forum on scoliosis.

Quote:
If Scoliosis causes a person's muscles to be stretched or tightened in a way that they aren't supposed to be, and then your range of motion is decreased--yet you try to use those muscles in a normal way, then of course it hurts!
Many people live work and play without any obvious signs of Scoliosis and they don't complain or make a big deal about it. To the rest of us their quality of life is great. However if you actually knew them and talked to them they would tell you what it's like.

Fish can't talk and they can't show pain in a way that we can understand. As long as the fish is swimming and eating we think it's fine. Yet we can never truly know if the fish is in a constant state of pain or not. Animals are notorious for dying suddenly to us, only for us to find out later that the animal had been sick for some time and we just couldn't tell. That's how keicko the killer whale died. No one knew he was sick till he died. Then they saw he had phenomena.

If we know that spinal deformities in humans are painful why would we assume that fish are different? And if you truly love your fish , why would you risk your fish living in a constant state of pain? All a fish can do is swim and eat or it will die, so how can that be a catalyst for quality of life? That's just surviving...


I am all for adopting out fish that have no deformities that could be painful, but when I saw fry of mine with crooked spines I culled them. And they were eating just fine. To me it's not worth the risk, sure it sucks and I hate to do it but I have an obligation to do it because I created them. It's my fault that they are deformed and they shouldn't have to pay the price of being in pain just because I can't stomach killing them.....
Bettas Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 04:32 PM   #49 
bettalover2033
Member
 
bettalover2033's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New York
Wow, where was I when this was all taking place? I agree with DQ that we should all be respectful of what one another says, no matter how much we disagree.

Anyway, just to say, I am still going to do the "Adopt A Cull" program. Not that I didnt listen to your opinions and criticism, because I did, but because I think that not all deformed or messed up fish deserve to be culled.

@Bettas Rule: I agree with you to a certain point. I respect what you are saying and am taking it into consideration for the well being of the fish. Though when you last commented about the "Scoliosis" thing, I have to say that fish are a different species and do not have the emotions of grief as we do. You said it yourself that in nature, they even eat their fry that are deformed or whatever the case may be about them. We would never even think twice about killing a baby because it has a *cleft lip*, *conjoined twins*, *autistic*, ect. You see if we were like this in nature and were fish, we would definitely cull them and not hesitate to do so.

Though these are fish and don't understand that they are messed up, for lack of better words. I think that if a betta or any fish for that case can live a normal life should not be culled. Now if the fish cannot live a normal life and is always struggling to either get air or food or even swim, then they should be culled because as they grow, it will only get worse.

I have a great example, You see many fish in the pet stores that are sick or have just terrible finnage, though you can give them a better home and help them live happier, but lets say that you cannot fix their fins at all for some reason, wouldn't you still buy them because you want to give them a good home? I think that't the same as the "Adopt A Cull Program" program or the *AACP* (I'll just use that instead of putting it all out. Also just made that up.) I'm not saying that fish dont feel pain, but im saying they dont feel pain as we do. If there is a fish that has a nipped fin then of course it is going to feel pain at the moment and then get better, but if we had, lets say a finger taken off, we'll yelp for bloody Mary and take it more seriously than a fish would.

@1fish2fish,@Dramaqueen, To Whoever Else It May Concern:

I agree with both of you and would like to thank 1fish2fish for how you cull you culls.

I believe that AACP is a great idea because when people buy bettas from someone, they have the opportunity to (AAC) and it is just a choice, whether they want to or not. The cull isn't to be bred so I would only offer it to someone I trust (like people on this forum). I know that you all wouldn't breed the cull so I would offer it to you. I definitely won't try to sell them like many people do on Aquabid, but will offer them a good home because if I raised them then I would want the best for them. I'm sure just seeing them go would be sad, but I know I cant keep them all.

I hope that I clarified my opinions about this topic. Also I would like to say that I am open to as many opinions and/or examples that describe the topic for others to understand your point.

-BL2033

Last edited by bettalover2033; 11-27-2011 at 04:51 PM.
bettalover2033 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 04:32 PM   #50 
BlakbirdxGyarados
Member
 
BlakbirdxGyarados's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Currently based in NJ
That's true about the spinal deformity. Honestly the call on whether to cull that guppy I used in my example or not wasn't my decision. (Not my fish or spawn of guppies.) As a note, the guppy didn't show any signs of deformity until she was a full grown adult.

Quote:
From dramaqueen:
Culling is a pretty contraversial subject so let's be respectful of each others' opinions please, even if you don't agree. . I feel the same way Jackie does. If a fish has a slight deformity but can live a pretty normal life it can be adopted out. But fish with deformities that cause pain and suffering should be humanely culled.
I'm going with this as well.

It is hard to tell with animals about if they are in pain or if they're suffering in any way. (Humans are animals too... sometimes we don't say anything if we're in pain.) We can only go with what we've learned through studying body language, behaviors, etc. throughout the years and going from that.

In short, I'm for thriving, not just surviving.
Each case is different though, and we all have to do our best to make the right decision.


(Another side note, sort of like... seeing the case is a better picture to judge off of than a description. Which I'm definitely not good with descriptions. >__>)
Edit: I'm so slow at typing, lol.
BlakbirdxGyarados is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Culling to Reduce Spawn Size.. Ethical or No? monroe0704 Breeding Betta Fish 24 03-24-2011 08:49 PM
culling andakin Breeding Betta Fish 29 11-01-2009 10:18 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.