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Old 12-01-2011, 03:53 PM   #81 
nochoramet
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And I agree about the human part. I would have a difficult time euthing or culling a fish (which is why I'm not going to go into breeding). I'm just pointing out that the betta does not have complex emotions and cannot be anthropomorphised.

I care about the well being of my betta, I get very attached to them, and I'm not calling them "stupid and useless", I'm saying that they do not hide behind brave faces if they are in pain, they don't put on a show for us, they're fish. They do not percieve pain as we do. They do not think "I hate my life. My back is crooked, it hurts, I wish I would just DIE rather than be in this pain."

I just feel like you guys misinterperated my point lol. I'm not saying that we should not show compassion for our fish, I'm saying that you cannot give human emotions and perceptions to something that does not have them. Personally, I think that culling is necessary, but in less extreme cases, I do not see a problem in adopting out culls that can have a content life as a pet. We should not base it off of thinking that the fish is hiding behind a brave face, but whether it noticibly affects the quality of life the fish leads. He or she won't know any different, to them, that is life. It's us, higher thinking creatures that must make the ethical decisions for them.

Am I making any sense?

Last edited by nochoramet; 12-01-2011 at 03:58 PM. Reason: added details
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:52 PM   #82 
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Originally Posted by Sena Hansler View Post
I don't think it matters if fish don't... Humans do. Which is why I couldn't smash them with a hammer. of course the fish doesn't know what is going on... but me being me I couldn't do it D:

There is to some point, intelligence in them, sure maybe not as much as a cat, or dog, or human... But as humans we show compassion (and anger) towards primitive creatures, giving them human-like qualities, a name, and a reason to keep them.

So anyone who literally lacks any compassion to a "stupid useless fish that can't do math" or whatever shouldn't own a fish then... but some do. why? I have no idea. ><
The perfect answer to that question is, People think of fish as "Decoration" or as I have heard of before "collection." I decoration is the word that tiks me off most! Its horrible to even think of them as an ornament. I red on this forum before that a member witnessed someone buying a ton of bettas and little tiny bowls for their christmas tree. I was so shocked!

I remember being in a petstore and seeing a couple of kids plus their mother with them, and the owner had his new shipment in and laying on the register table so I can take a look at which I wanted before he decided to open the bags and put them in their bowls. Well the two little kids lifted the bag and SHOOK the fish around. All the mother did was say "why would you do that?" As they left I went over to the bettas and they were twirling, so i told the guy that owned the place and he said "Eh, they'll be alright." I just walked out and told him that I wasn't going to buy from him anymore if he treats his fish that way. Whats the point of having a store that is mostly fish if you dont care much about them! I didn't understand it at all.

-BL2033
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:02 PM   #83 
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Originally Posted by nochoramet View Post
And I agree about the human part. I would have a difficult time euthing or culling a fish (which is why I'm not going to go into breeding). I'm just pointing out that the betta does not have complex emotions and cannot be anthropomorphised.

I care about the well being of my betta, I get very attached to them, and I'm not calling them "stupid and useless", I'm saying that they do not hide behind brave faces if they are in pain, they don't put on a show for us, they're fish. They do not percieve pain as we do. They do not think "I hate my life. My back is crooked, it hurts, I wish I would just DIE rather than be in this pain."

I just feel like you guys misinterperated my point lol. I'm not saying that we should not show compassion for our fish, I'm saying that you cannot give human emotions and perceptions to something that does not have them. Personally, I think that culling is necessary, but in less extreme cases, I do not see a problem in adopting out culls that can have a content life as a pet. We should not base it off of thinking that the fish is hiding behind a brave face, but whether it noticibly affects the quality of life the fish leads. He or she won't know any different, to them, that is life. It's us, higher thinking creatures that must make the ethical decisions for them.

Am I making any sense?
Yes you definitely are!

What i'm trying to say that there are many fish in pet stores that are culls and some need to be culled because of their horrible spines and some with their finnage just terrible. Obviously the breeders dont care and want to make a profit. They need to be culled and people (us) still buy them to give them a better life.

All they know is eat and swim because that is all that's in their head. (Not for all) Especially not for solitary fish.

-BL2033
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:05 PM   #84 
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Right, I understand where you are coming from. I think that if the fish is severely deformed, it would be kinder to put it out of its misery. But slightly deformed fish, or even fish that just would not contribute to your line should be given a chance to be a pet, rather than culled.
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Old 12-01-2011, 05:46 PM   #85 
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Exactly. It's like saying this about a dog cat ect.

-BL2033
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:02 PM   #86 
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Well this is quite the thread. It's nice to see that people are respecting each other's opinions for the most part since this sort of topic can get pretty hairy...

As you know, BettaLover, I run an "Adopt a Cull" program and I've been very pleased with it thus far. My program mostly includes fish with fin defects like tears or chips, which make them unsellable but perfectly healthy. I also adopt out "midgets" who just need to be on their own so they can grow and prosper. I occasionally give out less pretty fish as well just so I know they will go to a good home. It is mutually understood that culls are pets and should not be bred. Though I have a number of good fish specialty stores around me I still refuse to sell any of my fish to them since it isn't the store that's the problem... it's the uneducated people who are going to buy your littlins' who are going to cause them never ending suffering. I refuse to sell any of my fish to that kind of future. I didn't put hours and hours of sweat and tears into them to make sure they grow up big and strong just to sell them to someone who doesn't value their life.

Though it is very rare, I do cull serious issues like spinal deformities or swim bladder problems. I use clove oil or feed them to my lizards. However, I don't necessarily believe feeding them to another animal is humane.... Nature is anything but humane. Freezing causes pain and is not an approved method so I don't use it.

nochoramet- I agree that we need to be careful about applying humane emotions to animals (anthropomorphism). Humans barely understand what other humans are thinking, how are we supposed to know what animals are and aren't thinking? And I've worked with animals long enough that I don't want to know what they think of us!
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:27 PM   #87 
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+1 to your comment DarkMoon.

And I totally agree!
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:52 PM   #88 
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Originally Posted by DarkMoon17 View Post
Well this is quite the thread. It's nice to see that people are respecting each other's opinions for the most part since this sort of topic can get pretty hairy...

As you know, BettaLover, I run an "Adopt a Cull" program and I've been very pleased with it thus far. My program mostly includes fish with fin defects like tears or chips, which make them unsellable but perfectly healthy. I also adopt out "midgets" who just need to be on their own so they can grow and prosper. I occasionally give out less pretty fish as well just so I know they will go to a good home. It is mutually understood that culls are pets and should not be bred. Though I have a number of good fish specialty stores around me I still refuse to sell any of my fish to them since it isn't the store that's the problem... it's the uneducated people who are going to buy your littlins' who are going to cause them never ending suffering. I refuse to sell any of my fish to that kind of future. I didn't put hours and hours of sweat and tears into them to make sure they grow up big and strong just to sell them to someone who doesn't value their life.

Though it is very rare, I do cull serious issues like spinal deformities or swim bladder problems. I use clove oil or feed them to my lizards. However, I don't necessarily believe feeding them to another animal is humane.... Nature is anything but humane. Freezing causes pain and is not an approved method so I don't use it.
That is exactly the point I was trying to get across. Also I got the "Adopt A Cull" program from you! I call it ACCP or ACC...If there are any culls in the nearest spawn or at all, (the ones who can live their lives normally) will be adopted out. I thought it was an amazing idea to do! It gives a chance for them to live normal PET lives and get all the happiness, TLC and great homes.

-BL2033

-BL2033
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:14 PM   #89 
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I agree that we need to be careful about applying humane emotions to animals (anthropomorphism). Humans barely understand what other humans are thinking, how are we supposed to know what animals are and aren't thinking? And I've worked with animals long enough that I don't want to know what they think of us!
I love this.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:26 PM   #90 
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That is a very interesting way to put it!

-BL2033
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