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View Poll Results: Do you think fish have emotions?
Yes. 14 63.64%
No. 4 18.18%
I'm not sure. 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-19-2012, 10:26 PM   #101 
Sakura8
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To anyone who thinks animals don't display emotion or emotional intelligence: look at elephants. They grieve for their lost ones and also avoid areas where one of their own was killed.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:26 PM   #102 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahG View Post
Oh, no, haha, it wasn't an "expression", but rather actions that seemed angry to me. For example, Ezra's reaction any time I touch his tank -- first time I held my finger against the glass for any length of time he flared at my finger, but then when I pulled it back he turned and then came at me flaring. Or when I had them set up to where Ezra was in the middle and Beb and Hai were on each side; at first he would pay about equal attention to them, but then he seemed to favor Beb and focus more on here and I personally witnessed Hai having a fit, basically, when he swam from watching her for a second over to focusing on Beb. She was biting and attacking the glass and everything. That was what I meant by angry. Granted, that first one could be territoriality.

Okay, I was curious because I remember hearing once that sharks were among the more intelligent or evolved or...something...fish. I didn't know that about Elephant fish (actually didn't know much about them at all). I was mostly curious because of sharks (I'm a big shark guy, haha).

Ohhh, okay. That makes sense. I guess I was making it more complicated than it really was then.

As for your PS: well, I'm almost always up for a physiology and behavior discussion -- I find it interesting as well. Haha, actually, when I was thinking of going the biology/behavioral route sharks, specifically, were one of my considered focuses.

Sena: hahaha, I know what you mean -- I've been on forums where it seems that opinions against the majority/the "forum leaders" were dismissed or the person holding them was ganged up on and deemed by everyone to be wrong because they did not line up. So this is refreshing for me, personally.

dramaqueen: I've heard that geese will grieve their mates if one passes as well. I think a number of parrots have been seen to grieve as well. It's been a while, however, so I could be wrong.
I think what you were witnessing with your bettas was extreme territoriality. One thing fish can have is different personalities (but I don't need to tell a betta forum that, lol). It has been documented in other fish, too. The general personality types roamer and sitter. The roamer is the typical type A personality: always in the middle of the action, always up and moving. The sitter it your typical type B personality: likes to sit back and observe the action. This has been documented in all kinds of fish from goldfish to trout to sunfish.

Sharks do have a very different brain structure from bony fish, but they also have a very distant relationship to bony fish. Sharks diverged before the ancestors of land creatures diverged! In my Ichthyology course we dissected a shark, lamprey, and a freshwater drum. The shark's brain was by far the most developed. They are fascinating creatures to study, but I still prefer my bony fish better (that is also where the majority of my knowledge is). I guess the closest bony fish to a shark would be the tunas and billfishes, and I do love to study those guys. Powerhouses they are!

I actually have a BS in Fisheries Science. I would love to get my masters in fish behavioural studies or conservation. There was a guy in my class that was also a big shark buff. He said he watched shark week as a kid and never gave up that fascination for sharks. I think he ended up getting an internship to work with sharks in Florida.

Sena: I agree. This is a wonderful debate/discussion. A little bit of emotion. A little bit of science. I really like this forum. I have been on some very confrontation forums, and I just didn't feel comfortable posting.

DQ: I know that some birds mate for life. Don't know which species, tho. I honestly have no experience with birds as pets or scientific study subjects, so I can't really tell you more. I think there are some bird people floating around here (lol lame pun). You could try asking them.
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:19 AM   #103 
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I know barn owls mate for life and I think ducks AND geese do too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:24 AM   #104 
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koi maiden, I know about the confrontational ones - especially if someone asks for your opinion, then says "NO you're WRONG!". Makes it seem pointless. An opinion is not fact, it is just that: an opinion.

Also I have seen geese pair up, along with ducks and swans. I think they are a mating pair. One set of geese here, came back each time and had cute lil' babies!!! ^.^ My friend Jessica and I used to feed them frozen bred. They were actually really friendly. Something happened one year... The pair never came back and instead a group of vicious geese were about so we stopped feeding them and had to avoid them.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:06 AM   #105 
MaisyDawgThirteen
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I also think that elephants are the perfect example of emotion. When one of the herd dies, the other elephants bury the body and cover it in leaves. According to an article I read, when a mother's calf dies, she is visibly upset. Her eyes are sunken and ears drooping; grieving in a way. That article also says that they often revisit the site of the burial. How sweet! :D
http://www.andrews-elephants.com/ele...-grieving.html
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #106 
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I think I will rename this "Bad Betta Article/Do fish have emotions?". lol
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:26 AM   #107 
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Higher mammals such as elephants =/= fish, reptiles, etc.

Please decide whether you're going to be opinionated about this or scientific...if you're going to be scientific then realize that they are more facts and not opinions. If I stated my opinion in any of my papers I would have had my butt kicked out of university ages ago.

From doing various experiments from insects and fish all the way up to dogs and sea lions, I can assure you that brain construction and priority are vastly different.

The word "emotion" has a definition that not many people understand. The main part being is that emotion requires a conscious forethought or experience. The rest is just purely instinctive and/or physiological behavioural response.


For example, almost all animals experience pain because it is a physiological response to "something is wrong with the body". However higher mammals experience suffering and can respond to it with "crying" (i.e. a fawn I worked with).

I'm not saying any more than this unless people are interested in hearing facts vs an opinion.

Last edited by bahamut285; 01-20-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 01-20-2012, 09:56 AM   #108 
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We're just stating opinion and fact lol. Like we pointed out, instinct over emotion - because emotion cannot give animals like fish a means to survival :3 so go ahead and jump in
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:11 PM   #109 
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Would the incident with Hai have been a territorial response as well? I mean, that's the only time I've witnessed her do that and I often saw her watching Ezra when she was over there, and now she often watches Kostya. I've only seen that response once. Or would that be connected to competition for resources (in this case, mating)?

Ah, I had forgotten about the whole sharks v. bony fish thing...my bad. But...eh, like I said, I'm a shark guy so I'm always willing to listen about them, haha. Okay, so I had learned correctly that they had more developed brains compared to other fish and, yea, fascinating to say the least! And no doubt on the tuna and billfish -- part of why billfish are a difficult and dangerous game to fish for!

That is really cool, and Shark Week started my fascination as well. Is that what you're planning to do then? Work towards your Masters?

As to the bird discussion: I believe some parrots mate for life as well...I could be wrong, however. I think I've heard of it specifically with African (I think the Congo) Greys.

bahamut, I think lately we have been discussing facts -- a bit of opinion as well, but one could argue that's down to interpretation and I think now it's directly tied into the discussion of the facts (i.e. discussing for clarification). I will say, however, that your bit on the definition of emotion was interesting, but I think not many people understand it because it's not a definition you're going to find readily in the average dictionary -- most people aren't going to know the more elaborate/in-depth definitions of commonly used words.
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:48 PM   #110 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamut285 View Post
Higher mammals such as elephants =/= fish, reptiles, etc.

-snip-
+1! There is a large difference between elephants and fish (despite the fact that there is an elephant fish lol). Mammal intelligence and emotion is a very interesting topic, however I'm not well-versed in it enough to debate it. But I love learning about scientific studies in it.

You are very right in the definition of emotion. I believe that is a more scientific definition than most people are accustomed to; however, it is the one we should be using in this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahG View Post
Would the incident with Hai have been a territorial response as well? I mean, that's the only time I've witnessed her do that and I often saw her watching Ezra when she was over there, and now she often watches Kostya. I've only seen that response once. Or would that be connected to competition for resources (in this case, mating)?

Ah, I had forgotten about the whole sharks v. bony fish thing...my bad. But...eh, like I said, I'm a shark guy so I'm always willing to listen about them, haha. Okay, so I had learned correctly that they had more developed brains compared to other fish and, yea, fascinating to say the least! And no doubt on the tuna and billfish -- part of why billfish are a difficult and dangerous game to fish for!

That is really cool, and Shark Week started my fascination as well. Is that what you're planning to do then? Work towards your Masters?

-snip-
I don't know enough about betta behaviour (I've never even had females lol) to answer your specific questions. I'd ask one of the breeders around here.

I wish I had some good recommendations for some interesting shark books for you. My only fish books are about overfishing and just general fish encyclopedias. Do you have a diving certification? I bet diving with sharks would be awesome. Although if I was going to dive with Chondrichthyes I'd rather dive with mantas. lol less teeth

I'm just out of undergrad now, but I'm going out for my masters in about 2 years. I've got a good job here in my hometown, so I'm going to work off some student loans first. I would love to get my masters in something with either invasive species, conservation, or behaviour. From there I would like to get my PhD.

As to the opinion v fact part, I was under the same impression that Noah was. We have both facts and a little bit of opinion. The opinion is there because science can't always give us all the answers. Trust me; it's trying, but there are still things we don't know yet.
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