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Old 02-27-2012, 01:14 AM   #21 
GreenTea
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Do they both have dragon scales or mustard in them? The problem is, you really don't know what you will get. By all means try, I'm not trying to discourage you, but getting a certain fin with a very specific color and full dragon scales is going to be a lot of inbreeding, probably too much, so you might want to be realistic about bringing in other fish as part of your plan.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:21 AM   #22 
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They are both mustard gas, he isn't quite a full dragon. I can post some pictures of him if you like. I currently don't have good pictures of her.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:40 AM   #23 
bettalover2033
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Even though this is very normal and patientsis key, I must admit it is just a bit annoying and frustrating when you think they are going to embrace and he just runs her off.

I think I am going.to have to recondition them if they don't spawn by tomorrow night because it'll be the 4th day.

I wish my female would go head down, its the female that is really being the difficult one. Though who can blame her she is getting nipped and chased LOL.

@GT: I have the same thing happen but she isn't at the nest. His nest is pretty big considering my other males nests.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:45 AM   #24 
indjo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrein View Post
@indjo: what do you mean in "non worm live foods?"
but i thought, live foods are best for conditioning a pair??
im feeding mine tubidex worms
If you plan to breed her, non fatty food (all worms contain more fat-tubifex, I think, is the worst) is better. Fat will clog (?) her egg passage. Clogged egg passage means longer process and harder for her to drop eggs during embrace. Try to avoid tubifex until the last few days.

Fatty food is good for fry - makes them grow faster but their fins will be rather small. This is most evident in HMs. I never get fins grow 2/3rd of body length if I feed tubifex for too long.

Non worm such as mosq. larva, fruit fly, daphnia, shrimp, etc. are much better. They provide the needed protein without making your females too fat.

I have never paid much attention to this until recently - now that I'm working with PK's which has thicker body structure. Too much feeding (I mainly feed frozen BW) will make my pair too fat. The male will be too fat to embrace properly and the female will have a hard time releasing her eggs. Consequently less eggs get fertilized.
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@Bettalover:
All you can do is wait. I would give them a week. If they remain as they were - no change in behavior, I cancel and take them out (just took out 3 such pairs). But another pair - I put together a few days ago. The female didn't look interested at all after I released her (she was very actively flirting before released). All she did was hide though she remained colored with bars. I was going to take them out this afternoon but around noon they began to embrace.

Basically I'm trying to point out that you need to learn to use your better judgement because you're there to see what is actually happening. Example: sometimes I would let the female get beaten badly because I know she can take it. But I would NEVER advise that because I can't see your girl, how she's swimming, her behavior, etc. That's what experience teaches us - judgement.
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@Amph:
Mustard gas patterns in dragons IMO is easier than non dragons. For some reason dragons can have a blend of two different colors that doesn't usually show in regular scale. SO getting .... say a copper, blue, green etc. with yellow/orange fins wouldn't be that hard. Keep crossing the colors of your desire and you will come up with them in 2 or 3 generations - given that you pair the right couple.... the ones with compatible genes to mutate in a MG pattern.
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I mostly keep the male in the breeding tank as I age the tank and water which could take 3-4 weeks (I don't want mosq. laying eggs in them). IMO territorial issues will be the same as when they're put in at the same time.... just my way of breeding
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:05 AM   #25 
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So it looks like my male is finally getting around to bubblenesting some.
He has a few tiny nest blown in the area he is currently hanging out. So here is hoping he is learning and will get working on it. The female has found a nice hiding spot under the sponge filter.
I am going to bed, and will check on progress in the morning.

Indjo - thanks for the info, that was great to read. I am highly considering doing them as my next pair. How far down the generation line do you think it will it most likely take to get good halfsun stock?
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:32 AM   #26 
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Okay. So I guess I will wait until Thursday to take her out if she doesn't spawn by then.

I also would be getting my other fish by round that time considering they will be sent out by Monday or tuesday along with another salamander pair I'm really looking forward to by wednesday.

I really want to have some nice super reds though as well.

I also would really like to sell my 3 males that I bought, but don't know how to ship. I have never done it before and I think I would have to ask my local post office about their policy and other little questions about prices of shipping.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:03 AM   #27 
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I'm not sure because it's undesired in my country so people avoid/cull them. I've never heard stories either. But most breeders hear say that what ever line should be achieved in 3-4 generations at most.

Good luck to all of you. Hope everything works out as planned.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:58 AM   #28 
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Originally Posted by indjo View Post
I'm not sure because it's undesired in my country so people avoid/cull them. I've never heard stories either. But most breeders hear say that what ever line should be achieved in 3-4 generations at most.

Good luck to all of you. Hope everything works out as planned.
What if there was a geno trait that you wanted to include in the fish? Have you ever tried this?
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:03 AM   #29 
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What do you mean by geno trait?

dragon geno x non dragon = non dragon and worse or dragons geno that shows less dragon scales. Keep in breeding the drgn geno and you will eventually get dragons. In this case it will take more generations to achieve your goal.

The key to cross breeding is selecting the right pair which is often impossible since you can't see want genes each individual carries. Again, better judgement and instinct come into play which can only come from experience.... oh and luck. lol So it's more of a gamble if the genes don't show physically.

I got MG patterns (copper and green both with yellow fins) when I paired a platinum/white (dragon line)to a copper (also from a drgn line). That's why I say it's easier to get MG patterns through dragon breeding. I'm not sure if they were geno's - I didn't know their specific genetic background (2 different breeders). I was only told they came from dragon lines.

I hope that was what you meant.
...................

Form IMO is another story. It isn't as easy as color. You cannot get new forms just from 1 generation. It takes much more selective breeding.

On the other hand, the crown gene/allele is carried by many lines - or is IMO (this is totally my personal opinion based on fry form I get through the years of breeding) partially dominant. You will often get fry with slightly extended rays .... or what we call the "gear effect"..... some of you call them comb tails. If I am right, getting half suns shouldn't be too much trouble. Nevertheless any kind of cross breeding means you must keep several pairs to produce the following generation. IME you cannot work with only 1 pair to each generation. So be prepared.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:54 AM   #30 
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i really don't know how i did it but, when i released the female, they started spawning in 5 or less minutes o-o
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