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Old 03-14-2012, 10:21 AM   #171 
Olympia
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Hey! I'm one of those kids that didn't learn from being bit once. Stuck my face into our first dogs face, got bit on the face (fear bite). Stuck my face into my first cats face when it was scared of the dog, got a small scar on the inside of my mouth (cat got taken back :(). Approached several free running dogs in Poland, got chased and jumped on before I stopped going near free roaming dogs. Tried to pet my grandmas wiener dog while we were butchering a pig, it had some meat or something.. Bit me. All my parents ever told me was "Olimpia that's all your fault". And I survived! :D but I get that if that had been some large dog instead of a weenie, it could have been much more serious. :/
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:31 AM   #172 
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I would be certain if it were a large dog that bit you then, they'd be upset at the dog. Now for me my parents never cared if I were mauled. It was ALWAYS my fault. even when the guard dog escaped his yard, I was walking along, and it went to attack me -.- his owners called him, he sauntered off a little, then turned and came right back to attack me. luckily I had a long stick in my hand >< bopped him on the nose and he left me alone. -.-; it's only been small dogs who bit me. Other than the ill-behaved (ill-trained spoiled rotten bad mannered dog! >:( ) beagle, who my friend "claimed" to be the "only one" who could train him. Well she did a poo-all job, didn't she??!!

He tried to bite my face and I grabbed him by the scruff and made him sit and he flipped right out because someone was taking charge -.- he tried biting my arm once too and I just grabbed his collar, pushed my arm to the back of his mouth (safest bet when being bit, is to push not pull! less or no damage, and the dog doesn't like it!) and well he never bit me again. or tried.

I'd prefer a pit any day :/
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:59 AM   #173 
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Haha, yea, plus I never learned to fear dogs (except kinda weenie dogs.. But my friend with one kinda got me over cuz she was super nice :3), I always wanted to be around animals xD
My friends jack russells were being annoying, they chase fishing lures passionately, and we were fishing. A boat went by and this poor 10 year old jrt swam out like half a kilometer after their lures, we told them shed do that, they thought we were kidding. -__- I grabbed her and put her in a submissive pose, she struggled for like 10 minutes because she wasn't in charge, and gave up (I wait until I can let go and they stay down instead of running off right away). After that I didn't even have to say anything, she had no desire to chase lures, neither did the other one and I didn't even touch her.. My friend was like WOAH. Like, wow! Dogs listen if you don't let them walk all over you! Amazing! xD
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:33 AM   #174 
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Ah, see I'm no longer a fan of submission and imposing yourself on dogs. That's Cesear's way and I don't like to dominate my friends. I practised a bit of his method with my dog (going through doors first, always keep your head above his, don't feed him until you've eaten, 'pop' the leash to keep his attention etc. . .) but I found they not only did not work (even with consistency) but it dampened my relationship with my dog.
I looked into positive reinforcement training after that and had much better, much faster results! When the dog is praised for what its doing, rather than being punished when it does something wrong, the bond builds stronger between you :)
I mean, everybody has their way of training, I can never dispute that, because I have seen the pack-mentality training work to re-habilitate a pit bull, rottweiler and some rare breeds here in my own city at the pet expo. But what works for some doesn't always work for others, they think they have the pack-mentality but all they are doing is imposing themselves forcefully over a dog who is not trying to dominate them.. It doesn't work that way.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #175 
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Dogs dominate each other.. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but sometimes it doesn't work.. Obviously if your dog listens to you, you're on charge.. That's what matters..
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:38 PM   #176 
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agreed. for me, depends on the dog. my mom's dog needed to know she WASNT going to walk all over me, and I had to make her submissive (fairly small dog). other dogs, need that negative energy to be released - my friend's dog was pretty misbehaved at my house, so I took charge and he hated that... I had to keep him in one spot while he did his own tantrum 15 minute tantrum!! afterwards he was much better though :/ he came from a home of tension and stress. My dad's dog I've never used the "dominate/sbubmission" thing, I've done the usual "leash" method, similar to.... what'shisname on "At The End Of My Leash" show which is a pretty common practice from what I have seen here.

either way, as long as it 1. does not hurt the dog (for those who think dominating hurts the dog, it doesn't.) 2. the dog listens.
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:58 PM   #177 
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Cesar Millan is wrong. Those are outdated methods used in the 40s. Dogs don't throw each other to the ground and hold each other in submissive positions. Naturally submissive dogs expose themselves on their own. There's a difference.
Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think like wolves, and wolves don't even think how Cesar says they do. There aren't alpha wolves and they hardly ever, if ever, fight for dominance. There's a breeding pair and their puppies and when the puppies are old enough some leave and some stay a little longer, but dominance theory is wrong. I'm an animal science major and am taking classes in animal behavior- specifically dog behavior.
I watched the first episode of "Dog Whisperer" to see if it was as bad as everyone says it is. He said the chihuahua was trying to dominate him and HE WAS WRONG. The dog had its ears back, its tail between its legs, the whites of its eyes were showing, it was snarling, tongue flicking to show discomfort, and TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM CESAR. That dog was acting aggressive out of fear. Dog with behavioral problems doesn't automatically equate with a dominant dog.
Psychologists, behaviorists, and trainers have also proven with a number of species ranging from rats to humans to dolphins to dogs that positive reinforcement is MUCH MORE effective than negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment.
The top dog trainers and behaviorists all agree that Cesar's methods are outdated and even cruel. The dog isn't respecting the owner unless it is out of fear. I think it even has something to do with learned helplessness. But people who aggressively handle their dogs aren't building a bond with them and they're setting their dogs up for aggression or fear. The dog might be controlled, but if it is aggressive out of fear and you just increase the amount of fear and discomfort it is experiencing, one day it might snap.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:11 PM   #178 
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Originally Posted by revolutionrocknroll View Post
Cesar Millan is wrong. Those are outdated methods used in the 40s. Dogs don't throw each other to the ground and hold each other in submissive positions. Naturally submissive dogs expose themselves on their own. There's a difference.
Dogs aren't wolves, they don't think like wolves, and wolves don't even think how Cesar says they do. There aren't alpha wolves and they hardly ever, if ever, fight for dominance. There's a breeding pair and their puppies and when the puppies are old enough some leave and some stay a little longer, but dominance theory is wrong. I'm an animal science major and am taking classes in animal behavior- specifically dog behavior.
I watched the first episode of "Dog Whisperer" to see if it was as bad as everyone says it is. He said the chihuahua was trying to dominate him and HE WAS WRONG. The dog had its ears back, its tail between its legs, the whites of its eyes were showing, it was snarling, tongue flicking to show discomfort, and TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM CESAR. That dog was acting aggressive out of fear. Dog with behavioral problems doesn't automatically equate with a dominant dog.
Psychologists, behaviorists, and trainers have also proven with a number of species ranging from rats to humans to dolphins to dogs that positive reinforcement is MUCH MORE effective than negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment.
The top dog trainers and behaviorists all agree that Cesar's methods are outdated and even cruel. The dog isn't respecting the owner unless it is out of fear. I think it even has something to do with learned helplessness. But people who aggressively handle their dogs aren't building a bond with them and they're setting their dogs up for aggression or fear. The dog might be controlled, but if it is aggressive out of fear and you just increase the amount of fear and discomfort it is experiencing, one day it might snap.
++1 :)
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:15 PM   #179 
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Originally Posted by Sena Hansler View Post
agreed. for me, depends on the dog. my mom's dog needed to know she WASNT going to walk all over me, and I had to make her submissive (fairly small dog). other dogs, need that negative energy to be released - my friend's dog was pretty misbehaved at my house, so I took charge and he hated that... I had to keep him in one spot while he did his own tantrum 15 minute tantrum!! afterwards he was much better though :/ he came from a home of tension and stress. My dad's dog I've never used the "dominate/sbubmission" thing, I've done the usual "leash" method, similar to.... what'shisname on "At The End Of My Leash" show which is a pretty common practice from what I have seen here.

either way, as long as it 1. does not hurt the dog (for those who think dominating hurts the dog, it doesn't.) 2. the dog listens.
I love hearing discussions of different teaching methods because I think people really do learn from those and kind of get excited at the idea of trying out different methods of training their dogs, especially the ones that have some behavior issue.

I also really appreciate it when pit bull owners speak up to other pit bull owners about training methods because there is a sort of "brotherly credibility" between owners that non-owners like myself can't offer.

In that respect, know this: Bogey was born in 1993. He died right before 9/11 in 2001. In my memory at that time, rottweilers were the most controversial family dog out there (there wasn't controversy about pit bulls; nobody liked them). I was active on my dial-up internet on the AOL rottweiler message boards (feeling so old...) and of course I discussed the situation with my fellow rottweiler owners. Not one single solitary person suggested anything other than euthanasia. Know why? Because everyone was fed completely up with the bad rap rotts were getting, and they wanted those stories about kids getting bitten to end. They accepted they couldn't end the stories unless they could end the bites. They got extraordinarily loud about people ignoring warning signs. Rott owners were not a docile group, and if your dog had shown any aggression to a child and you hadn't euthanized them, you were severely chastised....you were taught better.

Pit owners need to start preaching that "one free bite" doesn't work and admitting that responsible pit ownership is hard because you have to accept that you may have to put down a dog even if he is simply acting according to his own aggressive nature. Pit owners are probably the only ones who can persuade other pit owners. If things don't change, I believe the rest of the world will take it out of their hands. So far, they aren't succeeding at fixing anything, and voters like me are lining up to vote.

Breed clubs need to change the AKC and other standards to deemphasize size and muscle tone and jaw strength and emphasize stable temperament and flawless obedience to commands. They need to support laws banning the advertising that is so commonly seen for pit bulls as "the ideal pit bull is willing to fight to the death to protect his owner's property" Yank their registration license or something. But if the breed clubs don't do it, again, voters will. So far, they aren't succeeding at fixing anything, and voters like me are lining up to vote.

I don't think pit bulls are hated for no reason. I think they're hated because their owners are too eager to defend the dogs. You saw on here where I told a really short story with really only 2 factors: 1. A 4-year-old, and 2. A beloved dog whose owner who sincerely was persuaded he was becoming aggressive. Nobody knew my dog or loved him like I did, but it was the pit bull owners (and those damn pug owners!) who jumped in to defend the dog. That kind of mentality needs to be shot down out loud by every responsible pit owner, like Pitluvs, at every possible occasion.

I know this was a much tenser thread than the "why are my plants dying" thread, but I will say I have appreciated it. Two people said they thought my current dogs were cute, and I now have enough posts to enter the photo of the month contest on the Tropical Fishkeeping side, so I'm leaving it having said my piece and better off. Good luck to everyone with your critters, both wet and dry.

PS: Pitluvs dog Mason's pictures are visible through the letter her sister wrote.

Last edited by Granberry; 03-14-2012 at 01:25 PM. Reason: omitted word
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:17 PM   #180 
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I remember my mom freaking when there was a rottie attack on a young boy. His face was all torn up. And yes, they euthanised the dog without even looking at the facts. after the dog was euthanised, did they find out the kid was pestering the dog to no end (i.e. teasing with food, which is a BAD thing to teach the dog!)
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