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Old 03-15-2012, 09:20 AM   #41 
revolutionrocknroll
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That's because the puppies stay until they are a year or two old, at which point they're close to adult size. I've found libraries and google to be useful tools... they actually have scientific literature online. This is what I study in college and I happen to be an aspie, and animal behavior is one of my "interests" so I spend more time then I probably should studying it on my own.

Another passage from "The Culture Clash"
"Empathy 101:

Imagine you live on a planet where the dominant species is far more intellectually sophisticated than human beings but often keeps humans as companion animals. They are called the Gorns. They communicate with each other via a complex combination of telepathy, eye movements, and high pitched squeaks, all completely unintelligible and unlearnable by humans, whose brains are prepared for verbal language acquisition only. What humans sometimes learn is the meaning of individual sounds by relpeated assoication with things of relevance to them. THe Gorns and humans bond strongly, but there are many Gorn rules which humans must try to assimilate with limited information and usually high stakes.
You are one of the lucky humans who lives with the Gorns in their dwelling. Many other humans are chained to small cabanas in the yard. THey have becomes so socially starved that they cannot control their emotions when a Gorn goes near them. Because of this behavior, the Gorns agree that they could never be House Humans. They are too excitable.
The dwelling you share with your Gorn Family is filled with numerous water-filled porcelain bowls, complete with flushers. Every time you try to urinate in one, though, any nearby Gorn attacks you. You learn to only use the toilet when there are no Gorns present. Sometimes they come home and stuff your head down the toilet for no apparent reason. You hate this and start sucking up to the Gorns when they come home to try and stave this off, but they view this as increasing evidence of your guilt of some unknown act.
You are also punished for watching videos, reading certain books, talking to other human beings, eating pizza or cheesecake, writing letters. These are all considered behavior problems by the Gorns. To avoid going crazy, once again you wait until they are not around to try doing anything you wish to do. While they are around, you sit quietly, staring straight ahead. Because they witness this good behavior you are so obviously capable of, the attribute to "spite" the video watching and other transgressions which occur when you are alone. Obviously you resent being left alone, they figure. You are walked several times a day and left crossword puzzle books to do (you have never used them because you hate crosswords; the Gorns think you're ignoring them out of revenge).
Worst of all, you like them. They are, after all, often nice to you. But when you smile at them, they punish you, likewise for shaking hands. If you apologize, they punish you again. You have not seen another human since you were a small child. When you see one on the street you are curious, excited, and sometimes afraid. You really don't know how to act. So, the Gorn you live with keeps you away from other humans. Your social skills never develop.
Finally, you are brought to "training" school. A large part of the training consists of having your air briefly cut off by a metal chain around your neck. They are sure you understand every squeak and telepathic communication they make because you sometimes seem to get it right. You are guessing and hate the training. You feel pretty stressed out a lot of the time. ONe day, you see a Gorn approaching with the training collar in hand. You have PMS, a sore neck, and you just don't feel up to the baffling coercion about to ensue. You tell them in your sternest voice to please leave you alone and go away. The Gorns are shocked by this unprovoked aggressive behavior. They thought you had a good temperament.
They put you in one of their vehicles and take you for a drive. You watch the attractive planetary landscape going by and wonder where you are going. The vehicle stops, and you are led into a building filled with the smell of human sweat and excrement. Humans are everywhere in small cages. Some are nervous, some depressed, most watch the goings on from their prisons. Your Gorns, with whom you have lived with your entire life, hand you over to strangers who drag you to a small room. You are terrified and yell for your Gorn family to help you. They turn and walk out the door of the building. You are held down and given a lethal injection. It is, after all, the humane way to do it."


I don't know what to do when your dog humps you, but she has to respect you on her own. You can't force her to because dogs don't understand that. Submissive dogs submit on their own, dogs don't roll each other onto their back and pin them down, or fight until one is dominant. Well adjusted dogs respect each other and figure out their rankings on their own using dog language. It's not usually aggressive. I've never been humped by any dogs besides an intact male poodle, but that's enough information right there to explain why he was acting aggressively.

Edit: I'm sorry if I come off as a jerk, but this is stuff that I study at school and there are many myths and fallacies surrounding animal behavior and training. I don't know everything, and when I don't know something, I'll admit it, but when I do post something, I'm pretty sure that I'm right. You don't have to believe me. In fact, it's healthy to question everything that you're told, but please do research into dog behavior and training before deciding which method you want to use.

Last edited by revolutionrocknroll; 03-15-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:58 AM   #42 
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I believe that the first link is excellent because it has links to a ton of other articles as well.
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
This is very interesting and also mentions a study about free ranging dog packs.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...lpha-dog-valid
I also just searched for why dogs hump each other and I found a number of explanations besides dominance: Sexual, boredom, attention seeking, anxiety, excitement, compulsive disorders, and medical problems.
http://www.petstyle.com/dogs/trainin...93-dog-humping
http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips....-mounting.aspx
http://www.aspcabehavior.org/article...urbation-.aspx

"Dogs do not understand rank because they do not relate to the experiences of others. They are self aware but not other aware. They can not understand "you lose, I win." All they relate to is the present (this feels good) and the past (this was reinforcing and felt good before)." From my third link.

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Old 03-15-2012, 10:49 AM   #43 
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waaaay too much information. Dobermans are very intelligent dogs and will take over a household very quickly if allowed to. Peeing on furniture and biting older dogs is dominance period. You have to step in and be the boss or your dog will.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:58 AM   #44 
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Well, my viewpoints clearly conflict with the average human's, but ask any professional behaviorist and they will give you a similar answer to what I gave you. Dominance theory would have died out years ago if it weren't for Cesar Millan.
It's not my dog, raise it however you want to, but to maximize happiness and decrease stress I believe that dominant and aggressive dog handling methods should not be used at all.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:40 AM   #45 
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See, this is my main point of confusion.. People that work with all these powerful breeds say not to allow this dominance stuff. I see first hand in the news what happens to dogs that get no training..
I think that any sort of training, to make the dog listen to you, the dog is acknowledging that you are the boss who should be listened to..
I know this kinda runs along the dominance theory, but I do think that if you don't train your dog, it will start to run rampant.. and I know dobermanns are very capable of outsmarting their owners :D
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:06 PM   #46 
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you are right!! They are a powerful, working animal and the key words are powerful and animal. You don't have to be mean when training, but you DO have to set the rules. They are not humans and they don't follow human rules they follow animal rules and in every animal community or pack there is a dominant leader. I have had dobes and rotties and german shepherds and they all had great manners and slept in my bed with me, they ate off my plate sometimes, but also, there was no doubt in their minds that I was the one who made the rules and supplied the food. They were happy and healthy animals who lived long contented lives.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:49 PM   #47 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolutionrocknroll View Post
Dogs don't go through doors first because they think they're dominant. They're simply excited to see what's on the other side.
Dominance theory is wrong and not accepted as a viable method in the professional world of dog behavior and training.
I recommend "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson if you really want to know how a dog thinks.
Depends on the dog
Emma accidentally goes through the door 1st because she wants to keep her eyes on my face.
Or if it was my doberman, he would be testing my alpha position.
The so called "dominance theory" is NOT completely wrong. It works best for certain dogs. I use it with all my dogs because I am a dog trainer as well as a house cleaner.
And dog owners NEED to be taught how they can use their body language and voice tone to gain control over their dogs without resorting to getting frustrated and yelling at the animal. Dog owners also NEED to learn how dogs communicate and act with each other. When they learn that they will understand why a dog chews on socks or furniture and other negative behaviors.

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Old 03-15-2012, 01:55 PM   #48 
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Originally Posted by kelben View Post
you are right!! They are a powerful, working animal and the key words are powerful and animal. You don't have to be mean when training, but you DO have to set the rules. They are not humans and they don't follow human rules they follow animal rules and in every animal community or pack there is a dominant leader. I have had dobes and rotties and german shepherds and they all had great manners and slept in my bed with me, they ate off my plate sometimes, but also, there was no doubt in their minds that I was the one who made the rules and supplied the food. They were happy and healthy animals who lived long contented lives.
My dominance training isn't "being mean" to my animals.
My dominance training is teaching my animals that I am not going to let them get away with anything. And that there is business time and there is play time. And they know what time is what.

Not saying you said my training methods are mean, was just using your quote to add my comment.
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:57 PM   #49 
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Originally Posted by kelben View Post
waaaay too much information. Dobermans are very intelligent dogs and will take over a household very quickly if allowed to. Peeing on furniture and biting older dogs is dominance period. You have to step in and be the boss or your dog will.
Totally agree with this.
My dobe used to nip the heels of my golden when we got him.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:00 PM   #50 
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Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
See, this is my main point of confusion.. People that work with all these powerful breeds say not to allow this dominance stuff. I see first hand in the news what happens to dogs that get no training..
I think that any sort of training, to make the dog listen to you, the dog is acknowledging that you are the boss who should be listened to..
I know this kinda runs along the dominance theory, but I do think that if you don't train your dog, it will start to run rampant.. and I know dobermanns are very capable of outsmarting their owners :D
Use the dominance right now with your dobe. Right now your dobe thinks there is no alpha established and is deciding to take "control of the pack".
Put you foot down and tell her "no, I am alpha here. I make the decisions of the pack. I feed you. I help you get warm when your cold. Without me you would be a dead dog"
Sounds harsh, but that is basically how it is in wild packs. A lone dog is a dead dog.
It is great that you've taken the time to learn about the breed and now you have a chance to experience it 1st hand and will spread your good experience and learning experience with this breed to someone else when they need it.
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