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Old 07-16-2012, 12:59 AM   #41 
bettalover2033
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if thats what it takes.

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Originally Posted by dramaqueen View Post
Maybe we should add pictures to imntbatman's sticky to make it easier to understand. lol

Last edited by Sakura8; 07-16-2012 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:13 AM   #42 
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The moderating team has discussed this as a whole (as in, other people beside DQ and myself came to this conclusion so there was no favoritism or other foul play at hand) and while we have decided to leave batman's cycling guide, we are willing to compromise and add elements of Bahamut's guide to the existing one. But I am sorry, we are not going to sticky it. If there continues to be a controversy in which uncivil comments are exchanged over this, we will remove this thread in order to preserve forum peace.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:21 AM   #43 
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Discussing it civilly means no eye rolls or snarky comments.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:42 AM   #44 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettalover2033 View Post
if thats what it takes
To be honest DQ, That comment that I made (quoting you) was NOT snarky and I was actually agreeing with you...Not being rude and using it against you.
It's a good idea to add pictures or even place Bahamut's post in iamntbatman's sticky so there doesnt have to be two different stickies saying the same thing.

I really didn't think you would take my comment as snarky or rude because you know how I am...I'm never rude to anyone on this forum. I think the eye roll should be put back on there. I never meant that in a rude way and it was an agreement of your statement. Really its just the way we read things sometimes.

Like I thought your comment was a little sarcastic, but looking back on how you are, I know that you wouldn't do that. Also if I wanted to be snarky I would have used this smiley:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dramaqueen View Post
Discussing it civilly means no eye rolls or snarky comments.
Sakura, I understand your point. I think there is another sticky saying the same thing, but I was just saying that this would be better because of the explanations. And Bahamut said she was explain (how) it works not only how to do it.

I was thinking maybe add Bahamut's post to Batman's sticky...Like a small divider like this:

_______________________________

To show it being a small division from Batman's part.

I believe this controversy should be handled civilly. When it is handled this way, we get farther and show a bigger example for new members here:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura8 View Post
The moderating team has discussed this as a whole (as in, other people beside DQ and myself came to this conclusion so there was no favoritism or other foul play at hand) and while we have decided to leave batman's cycling guide, we are willing to compromise and add elements of Bahamut's guide to the existing one. But I am sorry, we are not going to sticky it. If there continues to be a controversy in which uncivil comments are exchanged over this, we will remove this thread in order to preserve forum peace.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:09 AM   #45 
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Thank, you Bettalover. :) You are a great example that this can be dealt with civilly.

The moderating team will look over both guides and be in contact with Bahamut soon on how best to combine elements of her guide to the current one.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:38 AM   #46 
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With no offense, snark or eyeroll intended, I would like to critique, in a civil manner, imntbatman's long-running sticky based entirely on its merits.

Arguably, it is overly long. While not particularly complex, it is nonetheless a little tedious, certainly not calculated to hold the attention of many younger members.

Technically it ignores newer information available to any diligent researcher. The suggestion to use shrimp or uncrushed fishfood for an ammonia source is outdated. Recent advice from Carl Strohmeyer and other professional aquarists, suggest that these two methods can develop mold (Saprolegnia) in the tank which is harmful to livestock and hard to get rid of.

Advising the use of ammonia, without presenting the method of identifying "pure" ammonia, can lead to a foamy tank disaster.

The methodology for enhancing a fishless cycle does not, in my opinion, sufficiently emphasize the not inconsiderable effects of temperature, flow and ammonia quantity on the cycle.

Fish-in cycling is controversial. Relying on "hardy" or disposable (implied) species as an ammonia source (at 0.50ppm) is frowned upon by many experienced, sensitive keepers. It is especially egregious when one considers that fish-in cycling is totally unnecessary, contrary to what is implied in the sticky. In my opinion, this whole issue of fish-in cycling deserves a stickied discussion thread all its own.

Casual dismissal of "bacteria in a bottle" ignores recent technological advancements in preserving nitrifying bacteria at room temperature for commercial use. I am personally conducting interviews with Bettalist members and researching other fora in an effort to determine the efficacy of some of these products.

Repeatedly replaying the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate sequence is one of the reasons that essay is so long and such an arduous read. This alone is reason to consider a more tightly-edited, clearer presentation. Perhaps a visual one ;-}

It's really a shame that the only cycling tutorial that I can recommend is an even longer, more poorly written attempt by Strohmeyer. But at least it's up-to-date and accurate.

I have a satisfactory method of fishless cycling that I prefer. I usually use that short post as an answer to any question directed at me about cycling.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:13 AM   #47 
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Just plopping in with my opinion, woo!
Honestly, I think both guides are nice. I have to agree that the current sticky is outdated in many ways, but it can stay. Bahamut's is nice because it's sciencey, which I myself like.
I think what we really need, is an actual guide. Like "you will neeed:," "step one," "step two," kept nice and short. Things like what to keep ammonia levels at at each point in the cycle would be great.
From our current information we do get a lot of "I don't even know when to start," threads about cycling. A short and concise step by step guide should help in controlling all those threads and would help solve a lot of questions. I too, think we should cut out raw shrimp method. I myself did this and it's not very pretty, I'll tell you. The focus can remain on pure ammonia cycling, but we should keep fish food cycling in, which I found much less prone to mould, because some countries like Australia, you will not be able to get your hands on ammonia. For fish food cycling we can just have a little tip on what to do if it moulds (not that hard to deal with, honestly).

Just my two cents.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:45 AM   #48 
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As a newbs, I would appreciate a guide like the one suggested by Olympia. I am not opposed to researching but on something like this, where trial and error could mean the life of your fish, I would take the lazy way out and follow the step-by-step guide. I read batman's sticky and at one point felt my eyes glaze over because of the sheer amount of text, which is overwhelming particularly for younger members and beginners like me. I think that a compilation of the two along with step-by-step guide, where you have the theoretical and practical, would be ideal. Now if we could only find somebody to actuallly produce the darn thing.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:52 PM   #49 
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How is this for a step by step guide? This is one I wrote up a long time ago to help someone out.

Cycle refers to the nitrogen cycle. Although you might hear people talk about the aquarist cycling the tank, the truth is it's something that happens when you have a filter whether the aquarist does anything or not. All we do is speed it up a little.

The nitrogen cycle is all about ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. Fish put out ammonia through their gills as part of their waste. Problem is, ammonia is highly toxic to them and can kill them. But with an established filter there are good bacteria that will grow and eat ammonia. Bad news: those bacteria excrete the ammonia as nitrite, which is also highly toxic. Good news: a second type of bacteria will grow in an established filter that eats nitrite and excretes it as nitrate, which is a lot less toxic. Once your filter is established and your tank is cycled, you won't have to change the water quite as often but unless you have a 20g tank or higher, you'll still need to change some amount of water once a week. Anything under 10g will be twice a week or more.

First, the whole cycling process.

For a tank you're trying to cycle with the fish in it, I follow David Boruchowitz's method that he outlines in his book Freshwater Aquarium Problem Solvers. For this, you definitely need an ammonia test kit. If you can, I'd recommend you get a test kit that tests for everything. If money's a concern, there are 5-1 strips that work but other people say that the liquid drop method is more reliable. I can't say one way or another. But the liquid drop master test kit from API is about $35. The test strips are around $14. But definitely, if you can only afford two things, get a test kit for ammonia and one for nitrite.

Okay, so after you've gotten a filter, what you want to do is test for ammonia every day. The moment the ammonia goes over the safe zone, which is usually 0.25 ppm, you'll want to do a water change, about 30% or whatever it takes to bring the level back into the safe zone. Keep testing every day, only doing a water change when the test reads over the safe zone. After a few weeks, you'll notice that the ammonia levels are dropping. This means you're now in stage two of the cycling process.

Now what you'll want to test for every day are nitrites AND ammonia. Again, any time you get a test result over the safe zone, do a water change. Keep testing and doing water changes as needed. Eventually, you'll notice that your ammonia bottoms out at 0. This means that the bacteria that eats the ammonia is now established. Hurray! Keep testing for nitrites and doing water changes as needed until those levels start to come down and nitrate appears. Now you're almost finished. Your tank is cycled when ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 and the only readings you get are nitrate (which you need a master kit to test for).

That's cycling with fish in. Be aware that cycling with the betta in there can be stressful for them because the ammonia levels get to uncomfortable levels and he may get sick. If you don't want to stress your betta out, you can cycle the tank without fish. Get the tank all set up with the filter. Then get a piece of cheese cloth or some nylon (panty hose) and put either a piece of fish or some shrimp from the meat department of your grocery store or a large pinch of fish food in there. Tie it up and let it sit in the water for a few days. Then start testing for ammonia, which will begin to appear as the fish/shrimp/fish food begins to rot and decay. Leave the stuff in there but I warn you it might start to stink. Test for ammonia every day and when the level gets to about 4.0 ppm, do a water change to bring the level back down. You'll probably need to do at least a 50% change depending on the size of your tank. Keep doing that until the ammonia reads 0. Then start with the nitrite tests and keep going like you would if there were fish in there. Once the levels reach 0, remove the rotten stuff in there. Keep testing and watching to make sure the levels stay 0 for a few days. Then you can add your betta. Test the water every day for the first few days to make sure the levels stay steady. Then after that, do the water changes according to the size of your tank. And that's cycling. Whew.

Generally, you want to keep ammonia at 0 but with the types of tests out there, you won't know what the exact level is until it reaches .25 ppm. This is a level considered uncomfortable for the betta, where their gills start to burn. It's the lowest acceptable level for ammonia and it's not good to leave them in there for long. Anything over .25 is danger danger and needs a water change right away.

There are water conditioners that will remove the chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals as well as neutralizing ammonia by binding it to another agent, turning it into less toxic ammonium.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:03 PM   #50 
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I vote in favor of making bahamut's a sticky. Its easier to understand and maybe that will clear up the forum a bit (though generally the stickies are being ignored -_- )
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