Venla x Wild Card - Page 2 - Betta Fish and Betta Fish Care
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 06:30 PM
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This is ideal behavior from a tending father. Thumbs up!

The reason "all bets are off" is because so many breeders remove the father after the fry reach the free-swimming stage, that predatory behavior is no longer selected against. In the cases where the male will not tend, the breeder will artificially hatch or give the eggs to a foster father. This means "bad dads" still get their genes in the gene pool. The practice of removing the father early started out as a way to obtain a larger number of fry per spawn (dad will always eat some), and in some lines, is now a necessity.

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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 06:57 PM
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Yay! Gold stars all around for Venla so far, then~

Hm, that makes sense when you explain it, but that's never mentioned in the "how to's" that pop up. Betty Splendens chronicling of her positive experience with the method was great, but her breeding guide on a separate page still recommended removing the father. As a show-level betta breeder, I suppose that to them it's just common sense that removing the dad = guaranteeing that your golden betta isn't the unlucky fry dad decides isn't developing quite right.

She did mention that out of that experiment only 38 developed to maturity, but that those 38 were behaviorally and developmentally amazing. That's something I'd really love to pursue--selecting and rearing in a way that favors tending fathers as well as good form and health.

Yesterday I was weak and scooped up a copper super delta that's the complete opposite of Venla's temperament. If I do end up breeding him to a dark-bodied female and he isn't such a Parent of the Year, would I be better off selecting a female from his spawn to cross with a male from Venla's?

In other words, could a tending father, both genetically and behaviorally, change the course? If so, Venla's going to have his "good dad" genes spread everywhere.

Edit: omg, thank you! I'm glad I'm not boring everyone.
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-20-2015, 07:30 PM
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Behavior comes from two factors: Environment, and genetics. In short, yes. If you want a good dad, you need to breed for good dads. Even if the good father is removed or dies, the fry will have a greater chance of also being a good dad. If the father stays in, however, that possibility is magnified even more. There are some breeders who will not breed a fish that refuses to flare in the photo tank or cup for the same reason - even if he has perfect form, that temperament is passed on.

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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-22-2015, 10:44 AM
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I'm excited by this method of breeding! I can't wait to see pictures of the fry when Daddy lets you. :)

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post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-22-2015, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks! He's still all huffy and lets the little cories next door know who's boss. I did see some last night during feeding! They're just big eyes and little white bellies stuffed with paramecium, but I can actually see the little bud of a caudal tail on one that got close to the glass! I'm going to wait a few more days before I push my big DSLR camera up in dad's territory, though. Right now I'm still only tolerated when I bring food for everyone.
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post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-22-2015, 12:31 PM
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Hehe, you could always get some binoculars and watch them from across the room! Dad will never know what you are up to!
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post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-23-2015, 10:00 AM
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These two are gorgeous! I can't wait to see the fry, this log is too cute with all the care the father is doing!
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post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-24-2015, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Guess who's big enough to capture on my cellphone camera! That smudge behind him is a cute little caudal~

They hang out around the walls because I've got some teeny tiny worms (I think planeria?) climbing the walls of the tank that are bigger than the paramecium and other smaller infusoria, but still small enough that the spawn can easily make a meal of them. I was originally going to introduce some other foods at this point, but they're maintaining their fat little white bellies from what's living in the tank with them. At this rate I might actually be able to raise the fry up to transition off of live food and onto pulverized frozen without having to introduce things like egg yolk or other foods that will spoil the water quality.

And yes, I had to stop trying to take a better picture when SOMEONE'S indignant head popped up in my view. Venla, stop making me feel like paparazzi...
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post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-24-2015, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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So, I did it; I finally decided that I needed to scoop my quartet into a manageable space. However, I didn't want to take them out of the spawn/grow out tank and risk shock. Daddy's still not predatory and the four are growing well, but I wanted to respawn with Wild Card in the hopes that they'd embrace better after their first time together and produce a larger spawn. However, they're on their second week, and big enough to dart over and snack on newly hatched fry. So the first spawn needs to be contained, but without subjecting them to shock or cutting off their water flow by simple cupping. What to do?


I present the DIY for how to gather small amounts of fry into one easily feedable spot in a tank while allowing water flow:

--Take half a 2 liter soda bottle and with any sort of sharp object smaller than your spawn (I used a large gauge needle) put in plenty of holes all around. Don't put them on the bottom; this will allow you to feed them and easily suction up the remnants afterwards.

--Take four large foam circles from a hair curler set. Cut them so that they rest halfway onto the edges of the soda bottle. Take fishing line and loop through one of your small holes, tying a knot in the middle of each piece of foam to secure it.

Tada! That's it! Now the four are secured where water can continue to flow in and out, but they are easy to find and feed, and if you want to redo a pairing in hopes of a larger spawn (which I am), you can prevent sibling predation without risking shocking the small fry by moving them to a different tank/cupping them. Picture below. All four are inside and happily snacking on infusoria. Dad wasn't particularly thrilled about this, but seems resigned to the situation. He can still see and smell his fry, which is enough to not continue his stress.

(I took this picture the right way around, but the forum decided to turn it on its side...)
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