[papaki]

Hello everybody,

My betta, Poseidon, was alone during holidays. He remained also for 4 days without food and the 5th day and for 4 days my flatmate was feeding him. But yesterday that i got back i found him like in the photos (swollen face, loosing color in the face and it is like his scales are vertical to the surface of his skin). I am only mentioning this thing of my flatmate feeding him, to say that i do not know if on the 5th day was already sick or he got afterwards. So on the 30th of December Poseidon was ok, remained without food till the 4th of January and i saw his condition on the 8th of january.

His tail is totally normal till now and beautiful like before. No color change or something else. He can also swim normally but he doesn't do it often. He seems to sleep all the time and when i turned today the light in the morning he didn't wake up and he didn't come in the corner where he used to come cause the food would come there. The temperature is 24-25 degrees like before. He didn't eat almost anything. He comes in the surface very rarely and he stays on the bottom very often but without laying on the bottom.

Water needs to be added in the tank, since i didn't do it the last 2 weeks but i didn't add it still, cause i want to understand what i should do.

Poseidon lives in a 60lt heated aquarium with a filter. He is the only fish and he is in the tank with 5 shrimps and some baby shrimps, since 2 of my shrimps gave birth 10 days ago. There are also real plants in the aquarium and snails also.

Once a month more or less i change 20% of the water and i add aqua safe and the liquid food for the plants.

When i bought him 6 months ago, in the first 5 days that i had him in a small bowl (1,5-2lt) without heating and filter, till his tank would be ready, he started loosing his color in his gills but everybody said that this was stress and when he entered the tank actually this stopped getting worse. He never had his red color again in his gills though.

So i do not know if this is stress getting worse or some disease. Could it be that he doesn't like the baby shrimps and the fact that my snails are getting too many? I removed also the biggest part of the snails in the small aquarium without heating and filter that i have.

Thank you in advance for your help,
papaki

 

[Tropicalbetty]

I'm wondering if it could be a mild case of Dropsy?? The scales raise, the body swells and the betta looks like a pinecone. The kidneys are affected causing the body to swell. But I am no expert by any means. Need an accurate diagnosis here by someone. Also thinking of ammonia poisoning. You need to test ur water regularly. I would do a 100% WC immediately. And every 2-3 day.

 

[jadaBlu]

Vacumn his tank well and change 3 gallon of water (11.36 liters) today and wait until late tommorow and change the same amount again. The same thing the next day wait until late to do the change. You are improving the water quality gradually to avoid shocking him.

He should be getting more frequent water changes weekly is best but at least every two weeks. He sounds like he has dropsy but I don't see that in the pictures you posted. Can you post pictures that clearly show how his scales look? The least you can do if he has dropsy or swell is to add some unscented epsom salt. Start with 1/2 tablespoon after your water change and add another 1/2 tablespoon tommorow morning. Even it he does not have dropsy this won't hurt him. I will be up a little longer if you want to post more pictures.

 

[papaki]

Hello again,

I checked my water again today (i did it also 2 days ago)
NH4 is <0,05 mg/l (ppm) (test JBL NH4, with chemicals)
All the following are with a quick test that i see everything in a second and i get values for a lot of parameters.

NO3 mg/l Nitrat mg/l: 50
NO2: ok
Total Harness> 21o d (1 o TH=1,78 o TH=1,253 o e= 17,8 o ppm)
Carbonate Harness: 15 o d (1 o CH=1,78 o TAC= 21,8 ppm)
ph 8
Cl2 mg/l : 0

The conditions were from the beginning like this, i mean also 6 months ago. So nothing changed. But i do not know if they are ok.

Is it ok if i skip the vacuum and i do only the water change? I have a lot of small shrimps that i think will die if i vacuum. Or they will be ok???

And is it ok if i add the salt in the aquarium with the shrimps or i have to move him in another tank?

Thank you!

 

[Detectorist]

Deleted

 

[jadaBlu]

Does have white cottage cheese stuff under his scales by his head? It does not look like dropsy but more like lymphocytis. Let me know about the white stuff. The treatment is the same either way. A tank definitely must be vaccumed. I am sure there is some way to vacumn that keeps your shrimp from ending up dead. I am going to get some others who keep shrimp to review your post.

 

[papaki]

No it doesn't seem to have white cottage cheese stuff under his scales by his head. I think he is just swollen but i will try to get some more fotos.

I did the change yesterday, he became more active and he started using the normal places that he goes. He ate also a bit.

But this morning he seems to be lethargic again. I will have to check on him a bit more, cause i just woke up. But he didn't come to his corner to eat when i opened the light. This could be though cause he ate yesterday afternoon, which is not normal. Normally he eats in the morning only.

I attach also some pic of the baby shrimps, to see how small they are cause i do not want to kill them while cleaning the gravel.

 

[jadaBlu]

Keep changing the water your nitrates if I read correctly at at 50 which are way too high. I will ask others to look at your post and tell you how to clean with shrimp the Mod I asked didn't reply.

 

[jadaBlu]

I've cross posted and no one has replied. Weird normally people will respond.
I've read online you can use air line tubing to clean. and will miss most of them. You can let the water removed sit for awhile the debris will sink and the shrimp will swim and you can net them and put them back.

 

[jadaBlu]

Ok finally got a couple of replies

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=643457

 

[papaki]

The last 5 days i did 4 changes of 20-30% of water and today Poseidon seems to be quite energetic. (I am sick, so i stayed home and i can check on him during the day).

Yesterday and today he ate almost normally and he swims quite a lot. And i made one more check of my water:
NO3 mg/l Nitrat mg/l: 10
NO2: ok
Total Harness> 21° d (1 ° GH=1,78 ° GH=1,253 ° e= 17,8 ° ppm)
Carbonate Harness: 15 ° d (1 ° KH=1,78 ° TAC= 21,8 ppm)
ph 7,2
Cl2 mg/l : 0,8 mg/l

But his face is the same. He is still swollen. And to be honest i can not really tell if he is getting better or worse. Could it be that this swollen face will remain, even if he recovers? Like permanently?

Jadablue thank you very much for the post about my shrimps. Then i will clean also my gravel but tomorrow, since the last water change was yesterday. I am afraid that now he is energetic again, he will be again stressed due to the very often changes i did until now.

A! And my nitrates dropped from 50 to 10.

 

[papaki]

Actually i have a lot of fotos from everyday! And i put them altogether and now i think he is getting worse.

But i forgot to mention that yesterday he did bubbles again and it is like a month that he is not doing any bubbles. Furthermore, today every time that i go close to the tank, he comes to me like before getting sick. The last 5 days he was not moving at all if i would go close to the tank or open the light or the lid.

I attach the fotos, that i put altogether. I started feeling better today after seeing him moving but now with the comparison of the fotos, not any more.

 

[jadaBlu]

Which one is the last photo? I can guess but I am not sure. It's good he is acting more energetic.

 

[papaki]

Top left is from the 9th of January.
Top right is from the 10th of January.
Down left is from the 11th of January.
Down right is from the 14th of January.

Today when i turned on the light and opened the lid he came to me like usually and ate also normally. He swims all the day like before. He only seems a bit more frightened than before. When i was putting my hand before on the glass he was not afraid, now he swims away. And his face is still swollen. And he made no more bubbles like 2 days ago.

I will vacuum the gravel tonight. Didn't do it till now.

Could it be that he gets better even if i do not see his face getting better?

 

[jadaBlu]

They look like whitish lumps on his face? As if there are bumps under his scales?

 

[jadaBlu]

If you think your fish has some sort of skin infection I think I'd try the treament below in a hospital tank. If you lack that a very large clean food container (a new one that has been soaked and rinsed over some hours with Prime is preferred) floated in the aquarium will work use his original aquarium water and continue water changes in the tank. Prime can reduce medications so you have to time water changes 24 apart from hospital tank changes.

Do not use in the presence of invertebrates.
Nitrofurazone is more effective at lower pH levels, which means use for marine fish is best in baths, NOT the display aquarium!

Nitrofurazone is not Skin absorbed, so use of this Bactericidal for systemic infections is not recommended.
However Aquatronics and myself have found that Nitrofurazone combines well with Kanamycin (which is skin absorbing), and are very complimentary to each other!
When Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone are combined these medications form a synergistic combination that is not totally understood, but what is known is that often leaving one or the other out of the equation or not using both at full strength often results in failure in treatments of stubborn/advanced bacterial infections such as Columnaris.

As well since Nitrofurazone is often better topically for Aeromonas while Kanamycin's skin absorbing properties combine well with Nitrofurazone for Columnaris.
Since these bacterial infections are often hard to differentiate by the average aquarist, this can be a good combination when unsure.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html

Tetra or Jungle fungus clear has this stuff in it or there's Furan 2. Kanplex is by Seachem it normally has to be ordered. Sometime a LFS stocks it.

When you know the size of your treatment tank or container the dosage must be adjusted to suit the size of the treatment container. Let me know if you are going to try this.

There is possibility he has lympocytis which would account for the normal appetite and demeanor. i've often seen it posted there is no treament for that but I did find at least one article that said in very early stages Kanaplex helps. Keeping a very clean tank is imporant to keep it cleared up. The Jungle Fungus clear combo with Kanaplex may slow down the cell multiplication which lymphcytis is a form of. That is theoretical though and not from the site I mention. Either way the combo is meant to treat skin infections.

 

[papaki]

No it is not like whitish lumps on his face. He is swollen but he doesn't look any more so much like pinecone. Maybe not at all. Tomorrow with the new fotos that i will take i will make one more comparison.

In any case i vacuumed today half of my gravel (i also have a lot...) and tomorrow i will do the other half. Now if i lost some shrimps i have no idea. Cause i have a lot of babies and i do not know how many are they, but in any case i still see a lot of babies around.

Poseidon eats normally and he is also very active but his face remains more or less the same. Tomorrow i will post again a comparison. But could his face get better? Because i think he starts to put some color again partly. Or in any case it will remain like this? Do scales grow again? (i really need the comparison to tell, cause the differences i do not think they are so big)

One more thing. Before i read jadaBlue your post i bought the medicine i show in the foto. But i would prefer not to use any medicine if he is getting better, since i also have the shrimps inside. I hope this is wise, but i do it based on the fact that i see him energetic again and that he eats!

 

[jadaBlu]

You have you treat him separately due to the shrimp. I don't keep shrimp but I know they can be very sensitive to medication. The Bacter Stop is Tea tree oil (Meluca). Many people believe that this oil is damaging to a bettas laybrinth organ and don't suggest using it. Some people claim their fish have died from using it. It's known as Bettafix in the US. You will have to decide if you want to use medication. I went ahead and posted the suggested treatment because sometimes starting treatment can be time sensitive.
Technically, the treatment does not totally cure the fish if it's lymphocytis but may put it into remission and clean, vaccumned tank keeps it in remission. If it's bacterial it should get rid of it.

Close up pictures of his head might be helpful.

 

[papaki]

Hello again,

so i go on with my fotos comparison (i know most of them are blur, but that the best i could do...) and i would say that Poseidon is getting better. He looks to get some color back and become less swollen.

For the record, i did my first water change (30%) on the 10th, after not having done any for 2 weeks. Then i did again on the 11th, 12th (i cleaned also my filter), 14th, 16th i did a bigger water change (something like 40%) cause i cleaned also half the gravel i have.

Today i plan to clean the rest of the gravel and do again a big change of water (40%) and go on with a 30% water change on the 19th (in 2 days). Tomorrow i will do a water test.

He ate again normally today and he is energetic. So i will wait till the 19th before i consider giving him medication. Even this one that i bought, that is not an antibiotic and it shouldn't be very strong. I will try to make a search on this oil, that the medicine i got has inside. The thing is that i asked in the shop to give me something not so strong, cause i do not know what my fish has. I do not want to give him wrong medicine. I think this is worse than not giving him at all.

Do you think as well that he is getting better? Is it ok if i still wait and not give him medication?

Thank you,

Natasa

 

[jadaBlu]

If 17:01 is the last picture then the scales look less raised. I would think that is lymphocytis though. You can try keeping the water and gravel really clean route and get some indian almond leaves (rinse well). I think shrimp can tolerate them you will want to double check on that. See how that goes.