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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone on the board spawned a dragon and an EE? I'm seriously considering it and want to know if anyone has done so. I know EE is recessive and Dragon is somewhat dominate, so it would take a few generations, but interested in knowing of anyone else who might have done this.

Also, am I understanding correctly that true dragons are white/pearly bodied with no marbling or other colors in the body?

Thanks guys!
 

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I think it would be a good idea to get some more colours into EE! They all just seem to be salamander or royal blue. Yeah it will take a few generations to get both clean dragon as well as big ears.
First gen will give you normal sized pecs, metallic irids and probably some slight masking. So just a messy fish in general, crossing back to either parent will be a step backwards so I guess youd want to select the fish with the nest masking to breed for the next generation.

Since most EE are salamander which is basically red with heaps of irids, it might be hard to clean the salamander colour out...which is probably why they are always that colour...
I reckon this is a good project, if people started breeding other colours of EE I might actually start liking them lol

Today dragon is a term for a fish with thickened metallic scales and a full mask, but if you want to be specific its thick metallic white scales on the body and different colour fins, they almost always have a mask (although there are rare exceptions). Basically the dragon gene influences the irid layer and turns them thick, and if its not influencing a blue fish it will turn the scales white
 

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I don't have anything super important to add to this conversation, but I wanted to let you know that I have two EEs, and neither is Salamander or blue. One is red and white (he looks to me like a partial DS, but hard to tell), and the other is orange. ^_^ So it CAN be done and they CAN be other colors!!
 

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Drgns were originally designed to have white pearly bodies and looks thicker than regular scales. But since, as trilobite stated, it influences the irid layer, thus irids do not show white bodies. Irid drgn show the same color on body and fins. While black drgns are actually copper based which has an irid background, thus they show a more silver/grey color with black fins. Drgn scales now come in all sorts of colors/color patterns
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm still researching and trying to learn more about the genes and how the colors cross with one another, as well as breeding in general. I hate to see people start breeding without knowing as much as they possibly can about it, then jumping on the boards asking basic questions about how to care for the fry or general inquires that could have been easily learned by learning about the process before jumping right into a spawn. I respect those that have the experience and lessons learned but think that people should know as much as they can before jumping right in with the breeding process. There is a lot of info out there and it is easy to run things by the experts here if you are confused or get conflicting information. Some things are just a matter of preference or opinion, but basics are basics. Maybe it's just me, but I really want to know as much as I can before jumping into the entire process. I don't want to be the person with 100+ fry, asking how to feed or care for them!

I'll use this thread and board in general to learn as much as I can before breeding, so please don't expect any movement on that front with me just yet lol. I'm very curious and really want to try to cross the Dragon and EE, but want to do it the right way and not just on the fly. If any of that makes sense!
 

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I'm still researching and trying to learn more about the genes and how the colors cross with one another, as well as breeding in general. I hate to see people start breeding without knowing as much as they possibly can about it, then jumping on the boards asking basic questions about how to care for the fry or general inquires that could have been easily learned by learning about the process before jumping right into a spawn. I respect those that have the experience and lessons learned but think that people should know as much as they can before jumping right in with the breeding process. There is a lot of info out there and it is easy to run things by the experts here if you are confused or get conflicting information. Some things are just a matter of preference or opinion, but basics are basics. Maybe it's just me, but I really want to know as much as I can before jumping into the entire process. I don't want to be the person with 100+ fry, asking how to feed or care for them!

I'll use this thread and board in general to learn as much as I can before breeding, so please don't expect any movement on that front with me just yet lol. I'm very curious and really want to try to cross the Dragon and EE, but want to do it the right way and not just on the fly. If any of that makes sense!
Am I missunderstanding something? Maybe I need to sleep more . . . anyway, I'm confused about this reply. No one is telling you not to do it (that's the impression I got). trilobite gave you a general idea on what to expect in F1.
First gen will give you normal sized pecs, metallic irids and probably some slight masking. So just a messy fish in general, crossing back to either parent will be a step backwards so I guess youd want to select the fish with the nest masking to breed for the next generation.
When you cross a drgn to a non drgn, you will always get partial drgn, some metallic, and regular colors. The partial drgn may look a bit messy. But that is normal and can easily be fixed by inbreeding them. This is only the first generation. You will have to breed for at least 3 generations to get good full drgns that will breed true.

The hardest part might be getting partial EE (or EE geno) that are partial drgn. Since you want to keep two traits (drgn and EE), you can't breed back to one parent as that may weaken the other and might bring you back to square one. You will have to pair the best siblings. If lucky, 3-4 generations should do it.

No specific colors were discussed because you didn't mention what color drgn nor EE.

Pls, correct me if I got the wrong impression.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Am I missunderstanding something? Maybe I need to sleep more . . . anyway, I'm confused about this reply. No one is telling you not to do it (that's the impression I got). trilobite gave you a general idea on what to expect in F1.
No not at all! I did not mean it in that way. I did not think that anyone was telling me not to. I was just attempting to say that I wasn't going to do it until I was better educated about the process in general - and wanted you guys to know that. I did not want to give the impression that I was ready to do this now and would be providing feedback on the process. I will be, most likely, asking many more questions and continuing to research, before I feel comfortable enough to move forward. Sorry for any misunderstanding!!:-?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Based on the info you guys provided and some reading I've done from there, I do have a few questions:

1. I now know there are 4 layers and the irid layer is first. However, I am not clear on how each layer impacts the others and what determines that. For example, does a fish need to have one of the layers have more cells than the others in order for that layer to show or be the color of the fish?

2. I really haven't settled or chosen a specific color at this point. Let's just go with the assumption that I want to use a white/pearly dragon and the "traditional" salamander type EE that was mentioned above. How do I decide which is the female and which should be the male? Once those two colors breed, what would the fry look like, color wise - still the examples as listed above (a general mix with metallic and partial dragon)? Is there a way to predict an approximate percentage that would show the EE or is it a toss up? As mentioned, there will be partial dragons, but will some of them be EE?

3. Once the first spawn is complete, I pick the best male and female and breed them, but what do I look for? Both having a mix of the desired result, or both different, one carrying the most dragon and the other carrying the most EE?
 

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that i can help answer.
1) the top layer supersedes the layers below it.

flesh is the most submissive color, irid is the most dominant. this is why it is easier obtain solid blue fish, as opposed to blacks and even reds, because blue/irid just covers everything.

some common patterns that are influenced by layers of a certain sequence:
koi/marble/fancy = genes that independently control expression of layers in localized areas
platinum = red turned off, black turned off, irid turned on (usually steel blue)
butterflies = in most cases, red is turned off or drastically reduced (by turned off, i mean that areas that SHOULD be red (you see this in development) just fade away, exposing the cello layer.

2) in anecdotal cases, it seems that the female seems to contribute more to form. though theoretically, it's an even 50:50 split for genetic contribution between both parents. like what other have said, dont expect EEs to show up during the F1, but you should find F1s with slightly larger pectorals but nowhere near as large as an EE's. colorwise, you should expect the predictions others have given you.
theoretically for color: F1: 25% partial dragon, 50% metallic, 25% normal
theoretically for form: F1: 100% normal pectoral or partial EEs (if EE is a co-dominant trait)

therefore to determine the probability of getting a partial dragon with partial EE is: .25 X 1= .25 = 25%

3) if you want dragons, obviously you will be focusing on F1s with the largest partial dragon scaling possible. you also want F1s with the largest pectoral fins possible out of the dragon scaling group.
theoretically for color, F2 would be: 25% dragon, 50% partial dragon, and 25% metallic
theoretically for EE, F2 would be: 25% EE, 50% partial EEs. 25% normal type.
thus, chances of getting a EE dragon would be .25 x .25 = 0.0625, or 6.25%

good luck. 0.o
 

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Glad it's just a misunderstanding on my part.

amphirion covered everything. I only want to add;
While irids are mainly dominant on the body, red is mainly dominant on the fins. Black is the most recessive out of all three and can influence (slightly) both body (eg pineapple color, or darker shade of any color) and fins.

Though theoretically both male and female should contribute 50% of their genes, but it is believed that females pass on more of her fins while males more of color. I don't really believe the myth on color, but I strongly believe females determine fin outcome, though not 100%. So personally, I'd cross a female EE to a drgn male.

To continue your line, you would need both traits on each pair - the most partial dragon and the biggest pectorals. Not one most partial drgn x one biggest pectorals. Keep breeding the ones that carries both traits until you achieve your goal. With the right pairing, goals are usually achieved in 3-4 generations.

Just keep in mind that betta breeding is not a "1 + 1 = 2" type of equation. We can lay down all the theories but in the end you can get totally different results. This is due to;
1. They have been excessively mixed bred. Thus true genetics are close to impossible.
2. The equation consist of (ave) 1000 or more eggs. So how many survived? And which genetic make up survived?
3. One trait often involves many different genes.

But that's what makes betta breeding so much fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
that i can help answer.
1) the top layer supersedes the layers below it.

flesh is the most submissive color, irid is the most dominant. this is why it is easier obtain solid blue fish, as opposed to blacks and even reds, because blue/irid just covers everything.

some common patterns that are influenced by layers of a certain sequence:
koi/marble/fancy = genes that independently control expression of layers in localized areas
platinum = red turned off, black turned off, irid turned on (usually steel blue)
butterflies = in most cases, red is turned off or drastically reduced (by turned off, i mean that areas that SHOULD be red (you see this in development) just fade away, exposing the cello layer.o
When you say turned off and turned on, what does that mean biologically? That cells in that layer are smaller in number?

I guess I'm still trying to understand color and how it works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Trilobite

I just saw a spawn log for your dragons you did recently. Any plans for another spawn, or is there a current one going? Do you sell any? The fish I saw that you posted were beautiful!
 

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by turned off, it means that the expression of that trait is suppressed, it is no longer present on the body of the fish.

ex: platinum = red turned off, black turned off, irid turned on (usually steel blue)
on platinums, there is no expression of red (we should see no red on the body), there is no expression of black (no black present on the body, otherwise it is a dirty platinum, same with presence of red), irid turned on: the shininess on a platinum's body is due to the expression of irid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
My local Petco was having a $1 per gallon sale on tanks.

I picked up a 20 long for a breeding tank. Can this also double as a grow out tank?
 

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I just saw a spawn log for your dragons you did recently. Any plans for another spawn, or is there a current one going? Do you sell any? The fish I saw that you posted were beautiful!
Thanks :) they were a colourfull bunch. Nah I couldnt continue that line because I moved to Australia. I gave the pair that I would have used for breeding to another breeder so hopefully he continues the line, every other fish from that spawn has been sold now. I feel so empty without any bettas lol.
I have to get my betta fix through this site now haha
 
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