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Absolutely, and it is required.
 
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Discussion Starter #43
Wow, I've never been able to tell the difference between traditional, symmetrical, and asymmetrical PKs but that makes it really clear. So the points in the dorsal and caudal are okay? And that part at the end of the body where the caudal attaches...that's the peduncle right?

So what exactly are people looking for in colour patterns? Right now kois are awfully popular but that's "messy" colouration for sure. So what's good messy and what's bad messy? Are there specific colours and patterns that are more desirable? We've been talking a lot about form and there have been a few references to pattern but not a lot.

Btw PurpleJay: I know isn't he? Actually a pet store fish, but an amazing find. In my opinion his form is pretty good (though dorsal not ideal) and I'd like him critiqued but for the life of me I can't make him flare!
 

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Yes, Peduncle is the end of the body where the tail attaches to.

For colorations, I don't know exactly what IBC wants for everything, someone from the IBC would have to answer that or you can join ;-) However, there are some things I do know. But Coloration is a much bigger topic since there are so many variations!

If you have a Butterfly, the color needs to be clean and separate from each other; no bleeding at all!

Ignoring form at the moment, here is a good butterfly. See how the blue and the white are completely separate? Over time, that will change but for this moment, this is good.


This one is a messy or bad Butterfly. See how the reddish is bleeding into the white and there are splotches of red in the white as well? The red is also not solid red, it's red and pink colored. This is actually a pink Salamander, but still not a great Salamander


Salamander is the next, it's similar to BF but the body color is different from the fins (whereas a Red Butterfly is red body, red fins with different colored band around the outside). The body color should bleed into the fin colors and then there is a solid fin color with a BF band around the outside, should still be clean band. So the most common Sally's are blue body with red head and red fins with a white band.

Here is a good Sally. See the red head (not necessary but common), the blue scales lay over top the red. The blue bleeds into the fins but a good chunk of the red is still showing. And a nice white band around all the fins


This guy, while nice, doesn't show as much red. I'm not sure if that's a technical fault in IBC shows, but for a good Salamander, you want to see more red or whatever color is it on them, than that


Though most Salamander's are that color up there, some also look like this:
His blue doesn't bleed much, but that's okay.


Here is a Red Copper Salamander


Salamander's were based off of Mustard Gases in the beginning. The creator wanted them also to be called Mustard Gas which would then just be a coloration of: body being different from the fins with a BF band around it. This is what the original MG's looked like:


AquaBid tends to screw up MG's the most. MG's HAVE to have yellow fins with some sort of band around the fins. Common ones are Blue body, yellow fins and either black or blue band. As far as IBC, again, I'm not sure which of these is acceptable and which isn't.
This is what you want to see on MG's. However, the band is incomplete on the anal fin, that's not good. The band should go all the way around the fins


Despite what he's being called, this is not a MG. Most of the "MG's" you see on AquaBid are like this. A blue fish with a yellow wash in the fins, that is not an MG


Neither is this boy, just because there is yellow in the fins does not make it automatically an MG


There is also Copper Gas now, again, not sure of the status of the IBC but I'd assume it's accepted by now since it's been a few years. But it's the same thing as MG but instead of blue, it's copper. Here was one of my old boys:
He had the black band, though it was small. His copper color bleeds a little


Black Copper Gas (where the body under color is black like this one, it becomes Black Copper instead of just Copper)


A nice fairly clean Copper Gas


And there is also a Purple Gas, same rules apply. This one isn't as good since the purple color bleeds


And then there are bicolors. A lot of fish mistaken for MG's are actually yellow blue bicolors. If there is no band around the outside of the fins, it is not an MG but now a bicolor. A bicolor should have a solid body color and solid fins, color should not bleed between fins and body.

This is an example of bleeding, see how there is blue in his dorsal fin and caudal? You don't want that there ideally. This is a messy coloring


Here is a good Bicolor! Teeny bit of bleed but not bad at all


Another decent bicolor


As far as what is good messy and what is bad messy, all coloration types I believe can be shown, you just may be marked off for not having the right colors. I'm not sure if there is a Variation class for colorations or anything.

If you want me to tell you about a specific coloration, I can do that for most of them. I don't know what is accepted as far as marbles go but I'm sure most are accepted.
 

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I did some looking to try to figure the color thing out, and here's what I am coming away with for color types recognized in Area 1 IBC:

Light bodied solid (ex: Yellow)
Dark bodied solid (ex: Red, Black, Blue)
Metallic
Multicolor
Bicolor
Butterfly
Marble / Grizzle

Anything that does not fit in those categories would be shown in Division E: Breeders Division, in E1: Color or Form Variations

For example: Orange Dalmatian has no color category. It would go into E1, and must be entered with a clear description of what the breeder is intending so that it can be judged accordingly.

Salamander and MG would typically go into either bicolor or multicolor, depending. Salamander MIGHT go into Variations, instead. There's no "gas" category recognition. That's just a trade name .. makes the fish seem more exciting, so that they sell. No different than calling a yellow and black marble a "bumblebee."

When you're showing a fish and you're just not sure where to class it, put it in the HELP class (write HELP on the bag), and it will be classed when the fish are getting sorted.
 

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+1 thanks for that hrutan!
 

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please confirm my two new guys are ok?

Hi..I've only had my two guys for 2 weeks...one, I believe is a veiltail and the other a crowntail??? Please confirm....As well...the crowntail guy's fins look a little "ratty"?? or do they look normal to you? They both seem happy and very active and eating well.Thank you (I've never added pics to a post here so hope this works! :)
 

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Perhaps there should be a "Form and Show Questions" thread too? XD

Lil, I had no idea mustard gas patterns had to be like that. I just thought they were blue-bodied with yellow or orange wash in the fins- thanks for the heads-up.

Also, is the salamander pattern specific to EEs? Every single picture I've seen of them are all elephant ears, and I was wondering if you could get a salamander with no EE trait.
 

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The first two Salamander's I posted aren't actual EE's, they just hold the geno for it. EE is not exclusive to Salamander, but that's where it first came from and it's still a fairly new form so breeders are trying to expand on the colorations. So far there have been many variations; white's, pastel's, MG's, Pineapples, Sally's, Coppers, and I'm sure a few more I'm forgetting.

But yes, you can absolutely have a Salamander without having EE.




Terrible form but he's a Salamander without EE


 

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Can we do my boy patronus from petco? I know close to nothing about for but it seems like his top line is a little bumpy, and he is a little spoon headed. Also his dorsal fin seems to stair step and his anal fin is rigid. His anal fin is supposed to get long a the end right? Correct me if I am wrong! :-D

I really don't know anything about form! :lol: also please excuse the nerite snail eggs on the glass. also how do you get the pictures to be rightside up?
 
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Discussion Starter #54
*Cue flipping back to the diagrams and crossing fingers I get this right*. Yep, definitely not a great topline, quite spoonheaded. You're right in that his dorsal is stairstepped, and also the webbing looks a bit wonky to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but would I be right in saying that he has a "messy dorsal"? The anal tip ends in a soft corner instead of a sharp point, which I think is bad. Should the caudal edges not be sharper too? Also ventrals are a bit wonky. Where would he be put for colour *cough* *lil* *cough* *hrutan*? Lol.

Here's something I've wondered about. Are there certain things that make a good or bad pectoral? Especially on EEs?

Also is there a show class for females? And how many rays are "good" and how many are "bad"? Thanks!
 

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Pectoral's should be rounded (I believe, not sure what IBC's standpoint is on that) and at least 1/3 of the body length. Patronus meets that requirement there.

Yes, his dorsal is very messy, the ray's that extend out of the webbing is a fault. It should be smooth and it can have a point at the tip or rounded, it should not stair step as it is doing.

Caudal is a good shape, it looks like his first ray's extend all the way out to the corners to make a nice D shape. It looks like his ray's are random though, I see some 2 ray's and some 4 rays which is not ideal. He does have a good web to ray ratio though, some fish have too many rays and not enough webbing (usually ends up at as RT).

Anal seems to have too many rays which causes it to be wavy. And yes, there should be a point at the end, it doesn't have to be long, but there needs to be a point.

Ventral's are split and undesirable. Ventral's also are too short, they should be as long as the point of the anal fin (whatever that fin length may be, for this specific fish, the ventrals are too short).

Yes, he is also slightly spoonheaded but his body shape isn't bad at all! He's nice and sturdy but not so thick that it's undesirable.

As for his coloration, he looks like a White Pineapple possibly. Likely marble based, the blue may eventually cover up more of his body.
 

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so the ventrals should be as long as the end of his anal fin right? Also a another noobie question what are split ventrals, I have heard about them but don't really know that they are?
 

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Yes, exactly.

Ventrals should be knife shaped. The split ventral refers to the bottom tip of the fin, it may split off at some point and the ray's split from one another. This is not desirable.

Here is a fish with split ventrals, see the white at the end and how they are split apart? There is no webbing between them? Those are split ventrals


This fish's ventrals are very nice, though they could be a little wider towards the bottom; they taper too much.


Another good one, this is a Symmetrical HMPK, notice the shorter anal fin but the ventral point still matches up with the bottom of the anal


Very good female ventrals


Perfect! See that nice taper? Just like a knife!
 

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Veiltails and delta tails are not allowed to be showed, right? Just checking.

I tried to critique Comet and what I know/think is that his ventrals are a bit undesirable and his caudal is too round and small. His anal fin has a split fork near the base, which I'm pretty sure is counted as a fault because it is not an injury, since it's still present. His dorsal fin is a bit stubby, and I think his head slants down too much.
His body color is solid enough, I think. His fins are quite "blah", considering the colors are all mixed up. I thought that weird-looking out of place stripe of the side of his anal fin would marble out, but it's still there. Since red is dominant, I also assumed his fins would become red too because of the random splotches of red everywhere. but it didn't. He has transparent pectorals, which I'm sure is a fault because he is dragonscale and I'm quite certain they have to have opaque pecs.
Since his color hasn't changed AT ALL although he has quite some potential to marble up, I think he would be a metallic multicolor of some sort.

I'm probably wrong on all of this, so any input?

Sorry for using the same image over and over but it's the only good shot I have of him.
 

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VT's and DeT's are allowed in the Variation class as hrutan said on the other page :)

I'll start from the bottom up.

His ventrals are actually quite lovely! They shouldn't taper as much so quickly, but they are not split which is good. They also match the point of his anal fin (though yes, that is split, it's still the same length)

Anal fin is nice and slanted, matches the point to the ventrals. He has some random rays sticking out here and there so that is faulted. The webbing should be even and straight with the ray endings.

He's kind of in between a traditional PK and Asymmetrical HMPK, it looks like he's a failed Asym. HMPK I think. In which case, yes his caudal is not the D shape so his edges are too rounded. Ray count is excessive (looks like 6 or 8) for an HMPK.

His dorsal's first rays are stubby, they should extend all the way in a mohawk fashion if he's an Asym. HMPK. Dorsal meets and overlaps on Caudal; good. Other than the first ray's his dorsal is good.

His topline is fantastic! Yes, it should bend like that.

As for his color, he's a Multicolor Metallic (which just means he has thick scales like a Dragonscale but DS's are only white) And no, DS or Metallics do not need opaque pectorals at all.

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On another note:

If you all are having trouble discerning Traditional PK from Asym. HMPK or Sym. HMPK, then note the follow:

In the picture below, look at the anal fin, it slants and then sort of curves. The dorsal is smaller and seems to be further back, it still overlaps the caudal though; that's important. And then of course, the Caudal is rounded at the edges.


Here is a normal Asym. HMPK, notice the anal fin is totally straight slant. The Caudal is a perfect D shape and the dorsal extends forward as in a mohawk type motion, it is not rounded like a Trad PK is.


Hope that helps some more.
 

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Hmm. Interesting.
So he isn't as much of a failure form-wise as I thought. Good to know, considering I got him at a cheap PetCo who probably couldn't tell they were selling bettas instead of giant guppies.

I thought he was a messy Trad HMPK, but now I'm seeing what you're talking about. I was sure he had a pretty bad dorsal, but after seeing all those pics on Google I began to question my judgement. It's nice to know I'm not wrong for once.
About the ventrals- I thought they were bad because they started out with a nice, flat "handle" shape that the second picture starts with, and then they suddenly just thinned down and ended in a thin point.
I feel like his caudal is a bit small compared to the rest of his fins, but it's probably just Google pics messing with my head again.
He actually has fairly large pectorals, not at all like the ones shown in the second pic. They're a lot bigger than Neptune's next door, and I'm not sure if big pecs are faults or are just ignored. They're translucent anyways so I don't think it really matters, but just wanted to check.
 
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