[Overprotective Fish Lover]

Here's something I've been wondering about. Thanks to lil and hrutan, I think I'm partially able to identify and count rays if they're prominent. But how many rays are desirable in each tail type? How many should there be for:

VT?
CT?
HM?
DT?
PK (all 3 types)?
RoseT? (infinite?)
Etc.?

Thanks,
-OFL

 

[lilnaugrim]

VT: 2 Rays ONLY
CT: Most are 2 Rays, can be 4-8 (yes, there have been 8 rayed and even 12 rayed CT's; Chard56 had one )
HM: Depends. A good one that has more webbing than branching can have as little as 4 Rays, ones with less webbing and more branching can easily have up to 16 or even 24.
OHM: Usually has more rays around 12-16 but can vary.
DeT and Super DeT: Can have anything from 4 rays and up. Cannot be 2 rayed, otherwise it'd be a VT or Round Tail.
HalfSun: Same as HM but has some web reduction like CT
Combtail: Can have as little as 2 Rays (needs web reduction to be Comb) or as many as 6-8 or more.
DT/DTVT/DTPK: As little as 2 rays per each type and as many as 16-24 or more if it becomes DTRT.
Rose Tail: Usually around 16 and more, sometimes as low as 12 or 14 on males. On females it can be as low as 6 to be a Rose Tail.
Feather Tail: Same as RT but there is web reduction that causes the rays to spread out and look like a feather.

Traditional PK/HMPK: Traditionally they should only have 2 rays and lots of webbing/membrane in the middle. Some have 4 rays though.
Asymmetrical HMPK (the most common besides Trad): Usually 4 rays to 8 rays, again, you ideally want more webbing but they can become a Rosetail HMPK as well with a higher ray count. Not ideal, but it can happen.
Symmetrical HMPK (shortfinned HM): Same as HM but just a short version.

Sorry, there are mostly no straight number answer for these. These are pretty much the ideal numbers, though almost anything can show up except for VT which is strictly 2 ray only, the others can vary quite a bit.

 

[Overprotective Fish Lover]

Wow, thank you lil! That's so helpful! I always assumed "the more rays, the better," but I guess that's not true with most tail types. Thanks again!

 

[lilnaugrim]

You're welcome ^_^ On almost all tail types, more membrane/webbing is ideal and less rays if possible. When you start getting more rays, that's when you get into RT and FT and that's not a show fish then. A show fish needs a nice flat tail, no wrinkles or kinks in it ^_^

 

[Julie7778]

Would love to hear what you guys think! I also am trying to learn critiquing.

 

[Overprotective Fish Lover]

Okay certainly not a trained Berta critic, but I'm gonna give this a shot based on the rest of this thread ...

Julie7778, holy cow the elephant ears on that boy! He's a trad. PK, if I'm right, and pretty decent-looking form, to me. The first two dorsal rays look pretty stubby...not sure how big a deal that is in PKs, I know it's an issue with HMs. His anal could be pointier, but otherwise his topline looks good, his caudal looks great, and his pectorals seem nice and rounded (he obviously doesn't chomp them like my EE boy Gabriel does ). I can't see his vents though. I don't know if he's show-worthy or not, but no massive faults.

Hope this helps! If anyone more experienced sees something wrong with my critiquing please let me know, I'm just learning!

 

[lilnaugrim]

For Julie's fish, he's an asymmetrical HMPK, he does reach the 180 degree mark, his dorsal is not small and round, this makes him an HMPK

Otherwise I agree on the points made. Dorsal definitely needs work, can't have stubby rays like that. I can see a bit of the ventrals and they look like they're split or something which is a big fault. And as long as those ears are at least 1/3 of his body size, then you're good!

 

[lilnaugrim]

For the DT stubby dorsal question. Look at this guy, the very front of his dorsal closest to the face end, do you see those little numbs that stick out at the front? Those are the "stubby" rays because they are so short. The first ray should extend all the way up ideally but that is very hard to achieve for DTs so they often have stubby rays to varying degrees.

Here is another image, another stubby dorsal. Do you see how it looks almost like stair steps? It shouldn't be like that.

 

[Vergil]

How about this one? He's still a bit shy... Every time I'm around he dances and flares. He gets real spooked by the camera though - mirrors and all. :/

 

[Vergil]

After almost a hundred shots with the digicam later... xP

@lilnaugrim Now I know what you mean when you say only 1 or 2 in a few hundred shots ever turn out nice. And interesting. I wasn't aware he had that hole in his fin up until I took the photos!

 

[lilnaugrim]

Much better, we could still use an actual flare picture when he's extended his beard but I can give a basic crit with this at least. And yeah, the pin holes show up sometimes when they flare too much and too hard; it rips the fin. It may heal up or it may open up to a larger hole if he continues to flare, it will still heal though

Looks like he may be a small fish still. His body shape isn't too desireable; the topline should be smoother and curve more. Not sure if it's due to the dragon scales or not but he has a couple little bumps on his topline between his eye and dorsal.

Hard to tell on dorsal if it has a stubby ray or not, I won't critique it since it's not fully spread out.

Caudal looks beautiful, full 180 spread even without full flare. He's on the edge of having too many rays though which causes the ruffled rosetail effect which is undesirable in Bettas for showing.

Anal fin needs to be pointed more since he is an Asymmetrical HMPK, he has a nice slant to it though.

Ventrals are split! Big fault. Can't tell if they are the same length as the end of the anal fin or not due to not being down, they don't look very full though.

Coloration is good but the white iridescence scales are bleeding into the caudal fin, the fins should be totally yellow with black edging for his type. Black edging doesn't totally go around all the fins, notably on the dorsal and bottom of anal fin.

 

[Vergil]

Oh, I see. He's been flaring more since he got the new tank. He used to live in like 500mL of water from the LFS, then moved him for two weeks to a 1gal hospital tank. Now he has an 8.9gal to himself with a HOB filter and seems a lot happier! Will I need to medicate it or do I just leave it alone?

I don't think his topline was ever that smooth - it can really be just his shape. His tail kinda has a ruffle-like appearance at the edges so I guess time will tell if it'll change.

I think his ventrals are split. I've never encountered that in my previous bettas. Is this a cosmetic defect or should I worry?

Also, after all this has been said, well, is he a good potential breeding stock? I'm not breeding/showing but the LFS I got him from is marketing theirs as such.

PS.

Thanks for critiquing Lantia! ^_^

 

[lilnaugrim]

Oh, I see. He's been flaring more since he got the new tank. He used to live in like 500mL of water from the LFS, then moved him for two weeks to a 1gal hospital tank. Now he has an 8.9gal to himself with a HOB filter and seems a lot happier! Will I need to medicate it or do I just leave it alone?

Yeah, just leave it alone. It will heal on it's own

I don't think his topline was ever that smooth - it can really be just his shape. His tail kinda has a ruffle-like appearance at the edges so I guess time will tell if it'll change.

That's okay, it's all about genetics. Some Betta's have a very nice topline and others don't, it's all about the parents and what kind of care they had when they were growing up. There's nothing you could do about it now though.

And yeah, the ruffle-like appearance means that he has too many ray's, again, nothing you can fix, it's all genetics. As time goes on, it may become a little more ruffled in appearance, it never goes the other way (flattening out as it should be for a show fish)

I think his ventrals are split. I've never encountered that in my previous bettas. Is this a cosmetic defect or should I worry?

It's a genetic defect and also how they were raised as babies, nothing you can do about (see a theme here? lol)

Also, after all this has been said, well, is he a good potential breeding stock? I'm not breeding/showing but the LFS I got him from is marketing theirs as such.

He has potential if you find the right mate. He'd need a girl that has a smoother body shape, a good dorsal (hard to keep good and full), a tail with less rays to counter balance his, and a girl that has a nice anal (they usually don't come to a point but some are pointier than others) and without split ventral fins to be good. He's certainly not terrible by any means and for breeding, he does look strong; a little on the small side at the moment though. You ideally would breed a larger male to a slightly smaller female so it's easier for him to wrap around her and she won't slip out of his grasp

 

[indjo]

Vergil: if you want to breed him, look for a female with a nice body, fan like or half circle/oval dorsal, 4 Ray caudal, short anal, and small but wide ventrals. You may not get desirable form in F1 but you should have enough decent offspring to continue breeding. If that is too much work, it would be best to get a new male.

Some points: Ray is the bone structure of fins. HM and HMPK usually have 11 initial rays (that conects to the body). Each of them branches. When ppl speak of rays, they are referring to the end - one Ray branches into a number of rays.

A good formed Betta must have equal branching of each initial ray and equal webbing between all rays (equal at the base and equal at the end).

To take pictures, place Betta in a small tank ; 1/2 - 1g. Let him settle then put a mirror next to the tank, either left/right or opposite to the camera. Take a shot when his dorsal is open (when attacking, dorsal will lean back).

 

[Jadel]

Critique? Just for fun!

Got a real nice photo of Zuko today and wondered what type of quality he is. I'm positive that he's no where near show quality, but still, would be cool to find out

He looks to me to be a red crowntail combodian. Approx. 2 years old, maybe older. His eyes used to be the same color as his body, but changed black over the last couple of months.

[I'm a little worried he's got popeye, but that's for another thread I posted in the betta emergencies section. Sorta hard to tell in this photo either way.]

 

[Olivia27]

Nope, not Cambodian. Just red. To be a Cambodian you need a cello body, and then solid-colored (usually red) fins. Like this:

(( too lazy to Google, I'm going to bed soon XD so this is my foster when he first arrived. Excuse the missing fins ))



I'm far from a breeding/genetics expert, but I've been studying about it so I like to chime in and see what the real experts say later. With Zuko, I see:
- smooth topline
- no spoon head
- vents the same length as anal
- not sure if it's just the photo but his peduncle is funny-looking
- bent ray?
- weak dorsal?
- does caudal hit 180?

This is not a good photo to comment on anyway. Your best bet is a side view photo of the fish in full flare. Like this:



^ that's my own boy's eBay pic. He's pretty awesome finnage wise, although that caudal is juuust shy of 180 and the anal is a liiiittle too long. Technically his body shape is OK too, but it was probably that ugly narrow head (Volga can't read this, can he?) that made him priced at $5 LOL but whatever, I didn't buy him to breed. All I know is I got an imported fish for $5 and I could care less about what anyone say XD

 

[Olivia27]

Ugh, getting critique-worthy photos are a *nightmare*. I just can't seem to get it even with the flare-happy boys =\ aanyway. Forget what I said about my foster XD I cannot, for the life of me, capture his flare on a phone camera.

EDIT: welp here are two bad photos if you insist x)

 

[BettaStarter24]

From what I can tell, his topline is nice, and I love his head. But his anal and Dorsal fins are messy, unsure about his tailspread or ventrals though. His lovely pecs get in the way. He's gorgeous.

 

[Olivia27]

Aha, yep, bad photos like I said. King actually does have a nice overlap on his three fins, and a perfect 180 caudal - which I cannot prove because my phone snaps photos half a second *after* I hit the button >< one thing you missed though: he has a single stubby ray on the beginning of the dorsal

About the messy dorsal-anal, I'm actually wondering if it's only because he's young and still needs time to grow into his fins. That's true though, those spiky edges shouldn't be there. But then again this boy was bought for color over form the female is gonna correct those faults. Hopefully.

 

[BettaStarter24]

Oh I see that now that you point it out. It was hard to see in the cup.

I'd have someone help me with Chihiro my HMPK female if I could actually get a picture of her that wasn't her facing the camera. She's another stubborn one.