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Discussion Starter #61
A thought just occurred to me

What you're saying is that 70% of all farm fish (like for major petstores) carry some strain of mycos.

Also, per Olympia, fish in the wild also carry some sort of strain of mycos and it can even be found in the soil.

What you just said here mentioned a PATHOGENIC strain. So say, out of those 70% of fish that carry mycos, how many documented major wipe-outs like the one that happened to you have happened?

And if it's as small a number as it seems to be (seeing as most people don't ever have an issue with this disease) is it possible that only the people who handle large numbers of fish see the pathogenic strain? and if so, and if only 1 fish caused this and the ONE fish happened to have this particular pathogenic strain, then is it possible that a MUCH LOWER percent of fish actually have the disease that is causing the panic that we are seeing?
It is this pathogenic strain that is starting to show up in large numbers. You have to do a lot of searching as it is not the common strains. And it is deadly. I saw it locally in 6 pet shops.. in their bettas. And all get from one supplier. I think there is a serious exposure issue there. So recommend using real care, at this point in time, when buying from the major chains. I'm sure my fish had other mycos present. But the one causing the deaths and all the other crazy and varied sypmtoms was this triplex.
 

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I agree with you 100% But exposure to this strain will take a fish down., Happy and healthy will not make the fish able to resist this. There is no immunity once this enters the fish. It will weaken the fish and eventually kill it. My fish were in perfect health until exposed to this. And I dare say others I know who have dealt with this also have perfectly healthy systems until exposed. Sure.. take care of your tanks. But make sure you are not exposed too. I had UV and that just slowed the progression. I put perfectly happy and healthy fish back in my barracks and fish once again showed symptoms. It had not been eradicated properly from the system itself. did not even need a sick fish this time. I'm sure exposing you to something like the plague will quickly make even you not feel too good. Depends on what you are exposed to.

Well bringing up the plague is a nice direction to turn. Really gets on the rarity of certain diseases. There have been maybe 5 documented cases a year of infections caused by Yersinia pestis, so yeah, anyone in contact with the plague is going to feel kind of cruddy. Nobody has immunity to it. But when you are talking about Myco, a bacteria that every fish has, even the harsher strains are granted some immunity from it, as the fish is used to having it.

Oh and just in case you didn't know

**Yersinia Pestis = Bubonic Plague/Black Death
 

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Okay.. think this is my last post on this topic for now...
Mycobacterium has been around for years on end. When I joined this hobby, one of the first things on disease I read was "mycobacterium is found in almost every aquarium fish in some number." We've known this for a long time (okay, shush, I haven't been fish keeping that long :p).

I would honestly, think that if we were having some sort of bacterial epidemic here, that some magazine like Amazonas or Practical Fish Keeping would have commented on it. They haven't, no one seems too worried about this to me.
This has been around for so many years (gosh, some of those paper's sources are from the 90's- we do realize that's over a decade right?) and the world hasn't ended, fish still live in tanks, they will keep living in tanks. Die outs here and there is part of the hobby and happens when you aren't careful with your fish.
 
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It is this pathogenic strain that is starting to show up in large numbers. You have to do a lot of searching as it is not the common strains. And it is deadly. I saw it locally in 6 pet shops.. in their bettas. And all get from one supplier. I think there is a serious exposure issue there. So recommend using real care, at this point in time, when buying from the major chains. I'm sure my fish had other mycos present. But the one causing the deaths and all the other crazy and varied sypmtoms was this triplex.
How can you tell they have pathogenic M. without lab testing?
 
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That is true. Every expert who has written books/magazine articles on fish diseases agree that the only way to positively know a fish has myco is to do testing, whether it's a tissue sample or an autopsy. And saying you recognize the signs isn't cutting it because every expert also agrees that there are many diseases that mimic each other, hence the need for lab testing.
 

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You are correct, I shouldn't have used the term "only" maybe "mostly" or "the majority of people who see this type of disease are those who handle large numbers of fish" would have been more appropriate xD

Also, I have seen it happen to a person with only one fish before, so it is possible, what I'm saying is maybe the percentages of this particular deadly pathogenic strain are actually lower than what people think
I hope so. And it does make sense... But I think we also often don't hear about the cases of people who only owned one Betta, because anyone can go out and buy one, stick it in a tiny unheated tank and not think anything about it when the fish dies... Maybe it could be a reason people seen to have "bad luck" with bettas (besides that they are uneducated on proper care). Many people think that disinfecting with hot water actually works, and can't understand why every new fish they get dies...

I just find it hard to believe than anyone has that kind of info about the Betta population as a whole because anyone can go out and buy one. I could have got one on my own when I was 5 if I had $10.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Basement Bettas... Out of curiousity, did you QT the fish that introduced this to your tanks? Did you buy him/her from a store or a breeder? If you did QT, how long? What were the first symptoms? Most alarming?
I'm just curious because I want to know how long to QT any new fish and what exactly to look for and such...
Got him from a US breeder. QT for like 60 days. Decided was tired of cleaning the beanie and put him in my barracks. Then he got a bit off.. eventually bloated and died. It happens. so removed him and put another fish in that cell. About 2 more fish deaths IN THAT CELL made me think something not right. And now the entire row showing symptoms. Was not long after the entire system showed signs. Because I just went from one barrack to the next or next tank without disinfection.. I quickly exposed my entire fish room. In 2 months time I had every fish showing symptoms. I searched out a phd, asked some questions and he told me to send fish. He had wanted to look at the columnaris that was so resistant. It took 5 months from getting the fish to diagnosis. And I was lucky enough I was allowed to send fish to be tested. And they were very patient with answering all my questions and referring me to other scientific papers to read. Many people have had this in their fish room over a year and just never could shake it. Now that we know what it is it is being dealt with. And we are getting rid of it.
 

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So if I take good care of my fish (which I obviously do) then I shouldn't be worrying about this Myco bacterium?
 

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Got him from a US breeder. QT for like 60 days. Decided was tired of cleaning the beanie and put him in my barracks. Then he got a bit off.. eventually bloated and died. It happens. so removed him and put another fish in that cell. About 2 more fish deaths IN THAT CELL made me think something not right. And now the entire row showing symptoms. Was not long after the entire system showed signs. Because I just went from one barrack to the next or next tank without disinfection.. I quickly exposed my entire fish room. In 2 months time I had every fish showing symptoms. I searched out a phd, asked some questions and he told me to send fish. He had wanted to look at the columnaris that was so resistant. It took 5 months from getting the fish to diagnosis. And I was lucky enough I was allowed to send fish to be tested. And they were very patient with answering all my questions and referring me to other scientific papers to read. Many people have had this in their fish room over a year and just never could shake it. Now that we know what it is it is being dealt with. And we are getting rid of it.
60 days QT? :/ oh, my. Maybe I just shouldn't ever get new fish, haha.
How do you go about getting rid of this, you think? It seems like an awful lot to take on. 60 days sounds like a long time... Even that didn't protect your stock.
 

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I hope so. And it does make sense... But I think we also often don't hear about the cases of people who only owned one Betta, because anyone can go out and buy one, stick it in a tiny unheated tank and not think anything about it when the fish dies... Maybe it could be a reason people seen to have "bad luck" with bettas (besides that they are uneducated on proper care). Many people think that disinfecting with hot water actually works, and can't understand why every new fish they get dies...

I just find it hard to believe than anyone has that kind of info about the Betta population as a whole because anyone can go out and buy one. I could have got one on my own when I was 5 if I had $10.
You make a good point, and the only thing I would say about all the other bettas that people buy say, for decoration, is that we can't really tell what killed their fish, so there's no way to know for sure. It seems to me that most of the people I know that have kept fish, and kept them well have never seen this type of disease hit their tanks. Olympia made an excellent point about some major magazines, and someone else had a good point about if this was as bad as it's being made out to be, then home aquariums would be banned.

Personally, I don't see the point for panic on this level, now that the conversation has mellowed a bit (after 8 pages or so) there is less of that panic, however, for casual browsers who are looking for information on their pet here on the forums, seeing something like this and reading the first few pages is terrifying.

I digress, I guess my thing is, is that this really probably isn't the epidemic that some think it is
 

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You make a good point, and the only thing I would say about all the other bettas that people buy say, for decoration, is that we can't really tell what killed their fish, so there's no way to know for sure. It seems to me that most of the people I know that have kept fish, and kept them well have never seen this type of disease hit their tanks. Olympia made an excellent point about some major magazines, and someone else had a good point about if this was as bad as it's being made out to be, then home aquariums would be banned.

Personally, I don't see the point for panic on this level, now that the conversation has mellowed a bit (after 8 pages or so) there is less of that panic, however, for casual browsers who are looking for information on their pet here on the forums, seeing something like this and reading the first few pages is terrifying.

I digress, I guess my thing is, is that this really probably isn't the epidemic that some think it is
Yeah, I'm not too worried about my current fish... But I need at least 2 more females for my sorority and this makes me scared to introduce any new fish, especially if 60 days of QTing didn't prevent it. I'd hate to lose my new girls, or either of my boys... I've had my VT for over a year, now.
 

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I'll be dreadfully honest. I didn't QT any of my girls before I added them to my sorority. >.> I know, very bad of me. *slaps self on hand*
 

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Yeah, I'm not too worried about my current fish... But I need at least 2 more females for my sorority and this makes me scared to introduce any new fish, especially if 60 days of QTing didn't prevent it. I'd hate to lose my new girls, or either of my boys... I've had my VT for over a year, now.
If you want to be as careful as possible, buy from a breeder, you'll probably be less likely to encounter a deadly strain that way. In either case, I'd still go with the normal precautions and good husbandry and not worry so much. This has been around for a while, and though, yes, it is good to know information about this strain and what it can do, it's not likely that you'll encounter it. (I think, I'm no pro, just logic and common sense talking here... well at least... my brand of logic lol :lol:)
 

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Discussion Starter #75
It's not a matter of published papers, its common sense. If every fish has myco, then every fish should be killed and at home aquariums should be banned. And all these papers you speak of, I seem to be having trouble finding. Nothing I am reading is indicating that its the epidemic you are claiming it is. Sorry you lost years of works. Clean your tanks.
Some strains of mycos are more pathogenic than others and more deadly in your fish. There area bunch of strains. Can you not understand some are more deadly than others? It is exposure to THOSE and only those. You do not want marinum nor do you want the triplex. Those are two where the protocall is to destroy the fish and nuke the system. The others can be managed. If my fish had presented another variety, I would not have had the symptoms I did and something else would have been the cause. But the result was m. triplex. There is not much info out there as it is NOT common. But is IS working its way though bettas at this time.

My tanks are clean.. do your home work. I talked at length with people IN THE FIELD researching this. Just because it is not well know doesnot make it not a threat. Although educated and more familiar with disease than most.. you are not an expert in this field. And I am sorry.. but I will take the word of the scientists currently working on this over your lab experience.. no offense.
 

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If you want to be as careful as possible, buy from a breeder, you'll probably be less likely to encounter a deadly strain that way. In either case, I'd still go with the normal precautions and good husbandry and not worry so much. This has been around for a while, and though, yes, it is good to know information about this strain and what it can do, it's not likely that you'll encounter it. (I think, I'm no pro, just logic and common sense talking here... well at least... my brand of logic lol :lol:)
My current three are from Mo. All of them so far are super active and healthy looking. :) I've had them for a week. But, as Basement Bettas stated, the sick fish she got was from a breeder.

Sakura: ha, I hope I get super lucky with my sorority. I'm too attached to my current girls already and I don't want any of them to get sick. I hope they all get along once I get them in the same tank!
 

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I think understanding a well written scientific paper is nearly impossible for anyone without a degree. doctorate or phd in the subject.

There are many things in life we have to live with and fish being sick is one of them, if science had a cure for everything (within reason), do you not think something would have been said about it? There are countless sites on the web about cancer saying it has been cured for years and hasnt been released to the public because of the drugs companies and the fact they could lose billions, losing billions over having health care costs explode over the roof for cancer treatment patients...weigh up the argument.

There have been some very valid points here and yes there is a disease going around that is becoming more widespread, no more than any other potential disease "we" have to deal with in this world we call home. MRSA, simple infection in its earliest form, became very widespread due to the overuse of antibiotics.

Point being, yes this disease is carried by most fish, will something trigger it, cannot be 100% sure, all we can do is care for our fish as best as we can.
Truth is, you happened to come on a situation that caused your fish to perish, sorry for this loss, chances though are yes increasing on others getting it as it is becoming more widespread...look at it another way though, we as humans removed the fish from their habitat for our personal enjoyment...should we have done that...no not really...

Enough of my rant...it will effect some more than others until a full blown outbreak occurs worldwide there is no cause for alarm in keeping our fish.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Okay.. think this is my last post on this topic for now...
Mycobacterium has been around for years on end. When I joined this hobby, one of the first things on disease I read was "mycobacterium is found in almost every aquarium fish in some number." We've known this for a long time (okay, shush, I haven't been fish keeping that long :p).

I would honestly, think that if we were having some sort of bacterial epidemic here, that some magazine like Amazonas or Practical Fish Keeping would have commented on it. They haven't, no one seems too worried about this to me.
This has been around for so many years (gosh, some of those paper's sources are from the 90's- we do realize that's over a decade right?) and the world hasn't ended, fish still live in tanks, they will keep living in tanks. Die outs here and there is part of the hobby and happens when you aren't careful with your fish.
It is not an epidemic. It is something many of us that breed a lot of bettas have been recently exposed to. And I am seeing it in too many fish offered for sale at the local level. And I see too many posts here with stuff I don't like. So all this post if for is a warning,. It is out there., in the betta community. Breeders to the local shops. Watch your fish. Keep tanks as clean and healthy as possible. Treat for common disease. And if you face something that just will not go away.. look seriously at the possibility of this being the cause. And take the right steps to be free of it rather than have it nagging in the back ground. It can totally destroy the joy in keeping fish.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
So if I take good care of my fish (which I obviously do) then I shouldn't be worrying about this Myco bacterium?
no. If you do not introduce it with another fish.
 
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