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Discussion Starter #81
How can you tell they have pathogenic M. without lab testing?
no absolute way. But look at the signs. lesions.. mostly about the head. bloating and dropsey. Wasteing away. Bad fin rot that moves very quick and into the flesh. If you look down the sides of your fish and see odd patches with a little fuzz look to it. ALL are symptoms.. treat for the obvious and if it fails consider the mycos. Or send to a lab. It took a lot to get the final diagnosis of the strain. And it was done for the number of fish I had. My local vet wanted $900 to work up 3 fish. I had 30 tested first, then another 24 I think. I will send more this summer to confirm it is gone. Not everyone is going to get that from a research facility. So keep this in the back of you mind as always a possibility..
 

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Something just occurred to me. The person who first positively identified this as mycobacterium, at least on the forum and on the mystery disease thread, was Coppermoon.
 

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Where did you send them? Did you pay anything for it?
 

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Discussion Starter #84
The link to my article with the references was deleted. No outside links I'm told. But I hope this one will be allowed. It took some searching to find products that will kill this stuff. My first attempt was not a good one. If it needs deleted.. sorry, just remove the link. But the EPA.gov site is where you need to go and dig if deleted.

These are products that will kill mycos. I'd recommend seeing your local vet or googling some of these online if you want to have a heavy duty disinfectant. Even if you just have an outbreak of velvet.. if you break down a tank, it is not a bad idea to hit it with something like this. And if you have the flu in your house you can use it on your stuff too. To kill mycos required the second highest kill level I think I remember reading. It will kill HIV virus.. that is how strong we are talking.

I let mine stand the 5 minutes wet it recommends then rinse with water. THen everything gets a good bleach dip to remove traces of the first spray.. then another good rinse and you are ready to go.

http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/list_b_tuberculocide.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #85
Where did you send them? Did you pay anything for it?
When I sought out a researcher he located a local vet. He told me to see them and let him know what they told me. They could not even do a skin scrape and charged me $200. When I relayed that and the fact they wanted $900 he said to send fish to him. I got the initial result from their skin scraping. Then the did the finer testing and again said all fish had it all through the body,, in all organs. And it was recommended I talk to the leading researcher in the field to identify the strain as my symptoms were not lining up with what is out there on TB,. So he sent the referral to Dr Whipps and more fish were sent. There were some oddities like chin bumps that just were not typical presentations. It took a bit, but we finally, with dna, identified the strain. But I had already had the mycos diagnoses and was taking steps to get rid of it. When it returned we discovered the wrong chemical was used. Had I used the correct one I would not have had this last bunch with it again. I did not pay anyting but shipping for this.

It is not something they will do for anybody. With 500-1000 fish at any given time, I was almost like a research facility or commercial breeder. I am very thankful for their time and it has allowed me to tell others we have a serious problem. So it is now addressed and we are moving forward.. clean.

But the concern is with what I saw in local shops. One must use care when buying bettas as many come from the same facility. And I doubt they will destroy stock and decontaminate for bettas.
 
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Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --
Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.

Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
Bleach in a 1-10 solution is hospital grade and is proven to kill HIV Hepatitis, TB, etc as well.

Another good one is Barbicide, commonly available at most Sally's beauty supply or online and is a great disinfectant to use. It'll kill HIV, TB, Hepatitis, etc. We use it as cosmetologists (the blue stuff for our shears), as we are required to use Hospital grade disinfectants. 10 minutes, surface soaked enough to stay wet the entire 10 minute duration.

Read manufacturer directions and it will tell you how long to leave it on and if you leave it less than that, you arent killing what you think you are!


EDIT:: Sorry, I didnt look at the link before I wrote this.
Everything still holds true, but the list definitely shows more options.
 

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Discussion Starter #87
Something just occurred to me. The person who first positively identified this as mycobacterium, at least on the forum and on the mystery disease thread, was Coppermoon.
She got it from the same breeder I did. And she did not want to face the mycos when my diagnosis came back. I finally got her to send some fish and her diagnosis was not a surprise.. same symptoms. Got fish from same person.. at same time. And it wiped her out too. There are a few of us recovering from this. Everyone just though some crud resistant to drugs. We should have acted faster.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
Anyone interested in using a good disinfectant that will kill TB --
Look up MSDS sheets of products to see what they are proven to kill.

Bleach, if used right will work! You need to let MOST disinfectants sit on the product for ATLEAST 10 minutes to kill everything. It has to be soaked enough to be wet the entire ten minutes its being used or else it becomes inneffective.
Bleach in a 1-10 solution is hospital grade and is proven to kill HIV Hepatitis, TB, etc as well.

Another good one is Barbicide, commonly available at most Sally's beauty supply or online and is a great disinfectant to use. It'll kill HIV, TB, Hepatitis, etc. We use it as cosmetologists (the blue stuff for our shears), as we are required to use Hospital grade disinfectants. 10 minutes, surface soaked enough to stay wet the entire 10 minute duration.

Read manufacturer directions and it will tell you how long to leave it on and if you leave it less than that, you arent killing what you think you are!
Got to use a REAL high concentration for a long time. Remember I had it in my barracks running for TWO WEEKS and it still came back. Terminator triplex.. Isn't the exposure to bleach like an hour? And I'm going to check out sallys.. though I have a good product now.
 

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Was that a breeder in Texas?
 

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Got to use a REAL high concentration for a long time. Remember I had it in my barracks running for TWO WEEKS and it still came back. Terminator triplex.. Isn't the exposure to bleach like an hour? And I'm going to check out sallys.. though I have a good product now.

Barbicide is my favorite by far.
What we use at my shop is just regular grade clorox bleach. 1 cup/pedicure tub and OSHA and the State Cos board both say its good to use. 10 minutes in a pedicure tub and then another 10 minutes of plain water running.
We use barbicide for everything else besides laundry, which is 1 cup per load.
I dont know how it didnt work in your barracks. But this what we are required to do, and we are required to use the same disinfection procedures as a surgical suite in a hospital.
 

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Discussion Starter #91
Was that a breeder in Texas?
The origin.. no. And the source is no concern. We have identified the mystery bug, and we have the knowledge to get rid of it. And we have notified who we needed to.

If you let a tank air dry and sit a month or more, you destroy the biofilm and that will also kill it off. it is the biofilms that make this so tough to get rid of. Most research says to use bleach first to break down the biofilms then hit with something MADE to kill the TB.

If you buy local bettas, pick up lots of containers and look for patches of lesions around the head. That is the most common symptom. And if you see it on even one.. do NOT buy fish. Can guarantee they have been exposed at the shop with water changes or the holding facility they came from. Really not worth it...
 

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EDIT:::: I meant to say Barbicide PLUS. PLus is the tuberculocidal grade of barbicide.

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Barbicide-Plus/SBS-585064,default,pd.html << link for barbicide plus at sally's so you know what to look for

--This is kind of a long story --- BUT
It comes in a smaller form for anyone with only a few fish and interested in trying it. Its a 2 ounce (i believe) bottle with an empty spray bottle packaged with it. They do this because they dont have another license to sell it as a spray, only as an immersing solution. Anyways, you add half the bottle of barbicide to the spray bottle, the rest water, and you can spray your tank walls with it, and its much easier to use that way.
 

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Discussion Starter #93 (Edited)


This is what you look for. The grey fuzz looking stuff that makes you think columnaris. And the raising of the scale as more are setting in.

and this is MY photo edited for illustration..
 

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Discussion Starter #94
look past the first two arrows.. past the more gray area.. and you will see a fainter patch before you see those other arrows with the raised scales. From nose to almost where the blue starts is an infected area. It will become more like the more grey areas towards the front in time. If the internal organs do not fail first.
 

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Discussion Starter #95
EDIT:::: I meant to say Barbicide PLUS. PLus is the tuberculocidal grade of barbicide.

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Barbicide-Plus/SBS-585064,default,pd.html << link for barbicide plus at sally's so you know what to look for

--This is kind of a long story --- BUT
It comes in a smaller form for anyone with only a few fish and interested in trying it. Its a 2 ounce (i believe) bottle with an empty spray bottle packaged with it. They do this because they dont have another license to sell it as a spray, only as an immersing solution. Anyways, you add half the bottle of barbicide to the spray bottle, the rest water, and you can spray your tank walls with it, and its much easier to use that way.
COOL! Thanks for the link and info. I have not live anyplace in the last 30 years that did not have a sallys. So people should be able to get this type of product easily. Thanks again.
 

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This thread really got my attention and concerned me. After I calmed down I realized its a very helpful thread as it made me evaluate the bio safety of my set up. I have reorganized to prevent illness to myself and hopefully my fish. I read the list of things that can kill the bacteria and many of those things are readily available. That was a relief.

This thread helped me cause now I am aware of potential problems and can take steps to prevent them. But yes, it did also scare me :)
 

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Discussion Starter #97
This thread really got my attention and concerned me. After I calmed down I realized its a very helpful thread as it made me evaluate the bio safety of my set up. I have reorganized to prevent illness to myself and hopefully my fish. I read the list of things that can kill the bacteria and many of those things are readily available. That was a relief.

This thread helped me cause now I am aware of potential problems and can take steps to prevent them. But yes, it did also scare me :)
Then the thread did it's job. No need to be freaked out.. but know there can be a problem. I wish some one had presented the possibility of such a thing to me. Some fear is a good thing.. lol

If you have any concerns that are not addressed.. just pm me and I'll discuss private.
 

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Can I ask something ?

My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
His ski become red, and his skin was broken.

What do you think ?
Was that Micobacteria ?
 

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Some strains of mycos are more pathogenic than others and more deadly in your fish. There area bunch of strains. Can you not understand some are more deadly than others? It is exposure to THOSE and only those. You do not want marinum nor do you want the triplex. Those are two where the protocall is to destroy the fish and nuke the system. The others can be managed. If my fish had presented another variety, I would not have had the symptoms I did and something else would have been the cause. But the result was m. triplex. There is not much info out there as it is NOT common. But is IS working its way though bettas at this time.

My tanks are clean.. do your home work. I talked at length with people IN THE FIELD researching this. Just because it is not well know doesnot make it not a threat. Although educated and more familiar with disease than most.. you are not an expert in this field. And I am sorry.. but I will take the word of the scientists currently working on this over your lab experience.. no offense.
Well, if you want to believe everything you read and scare the fishkeeping population into not buying fish, just because you had a bad fish, then go for it.
 

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Oh wow... I mean, serious? This thread was intended to inform, not create hysteria or scare people from buying fish. This had been taken way out of context, and some (such as Finn) would not of freaked out if others didn't jump the bandwagon and go on the attack instead of discussing something that is serious.

We're not talking about how all bettas have this and how rare it happens, etc.. what BB is trying to say is that there is a strong strain that has recently surfaced and is going on the attack big time as of late.

That's it. A warning. "Hey, this strain of this serious bacteria has been popping up lately in mass amounts more than normal, so take precautions when you get new fish". And she stated her troubles with it.

How in the world it got into a debate, why people would attack, is beyond me. People who are out there buying sick fish because they want to "rescue" a betta need this warning. It's crazy to go out and buy a sick fish, in my opinion. I personally have too much time and money placed into my couple dozen bettas that are for breeding to not listen to people who have had to deal with this. If you have one fish, then there is no reason to panic.. if you have just a few fish there is no reason to panic. But the lesson still stands - take care when you purchase sick fish. Or don't risk the health of your current fish (regardless of the numbers) and just don't buy a sick fish. Simple as that.

To attack and say this thread is creating hysteria, etc is just silly.. it wasn't until someone/s went on the attack did someone "freak out" about it. It's the people who walk around the crowd whispering in the ears of the people saying "Oh hey, this person is speaking of the devil! That person knows something we don't and is warning us of doom! Witch! Witch! Watch your children run and scream in fear because this is witchcraft!", those people whispering in the ears are what creates hysteria. Someone giving vital information and warning that a certain strain has become troublesome as of late is nothing to argue against. If specialists are saying that this strain has popped up and is being very aggressive recently then that is what is happening, has nothing to do with whether or not these fish carry a different strain of it all the time. Not talking about that. Talking about this particular strain and how it's going on the attack right now wide spread. That's it.
You have had your fish for years and it's been healthy, and you don't plan on buying any new fish any time soon.. then why worry? This is just to let people know to be careful with new fish that has been taken way out of context/hand.

I mean, seriously.. to argue because someone is warning of what is happening in the betta trade right now is not helping anyone.

On a side note - I need to talk to a breeder friend of mine, and get with you BB (will do it on B.Source), as your picture is exactly what one of mine I got from a breeder looked like before I put him down yesterday.. 20 years of raising fish, one case of Ich, no other disease has affected any of my fish, deaths only from old age and I just had exactly what that picture shows happen to an import that has been passed around to a few breeders before he came to me.. those visual symptoms are what he had, no other symptom was noticed other then lethargy, ruled out dropsy (may not of had a sick fish, but spent the better part of 2 years researching illnesses in bettas and what my guy had was new to me). So in fact if this strain is as active as it is showing to be, and if people are being warned about it (talking about specialists warning) then this is of high concern to people who breed/show fish. I can't say for sure this guy has it, and I'm not going to freak out about it. But because of this I will be taking precautions, warn the breeders who have had this particular fish and see if I lose another. If I lose another fish the same way then I will take the steps to get it tested, etc and go from there. No one should freak out about a warning. I have a reason to and I'm not.. have just purchased 3 more imports that should be here today or tomorrow, I will take extra precautions.. no big deal. And it should be a concern to anyone who is actively purchasing fish, sick fish.

I wish I didn't get rid of the body yesterday.. I would of liked to of gotten him tested because if he has it then there are a couple great breeders that I need to warn.

THANK YOU BB, even if people are jumping on the bandwagon of trying to argue for the sake of arguing, the warning you gave is a very good one and should be appreciated.

Sorry, may not of been the best to jump in, but I just saw no reason for the assault on BB and her post.
Not about not buying fish.. it's about taking precautions when introducing new fish.. being a little scared is fine, as it gets you to thinking about being careful, etc and that is a good thing. Please, can we just stop attacking the messenger here, and instead discuss ways to help reduce the risk of this becoming even more wide spread?
 
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