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Can I ask something ?

My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
His ski become red, and his skin was broken.

What do you think ?
Was that Micobacteria ?
What medication did you use to treat fin rot? Medications, as a whole, can be very hard on fish due to their small/fragile organs. It's very easy to overdose on the medications which could also cause a lot of health problems.

It seems you have used numerous medications on the fish.. why I am curious as to what you did for the fin rot.

Pineconing happens from all different ailments, normally it happens once internal organs start to fail.. which could of happened due to medications being used.. even using AQ salt for certain problems such as SBD can make things worse and deadly.

He may of had an internal bacteria infection (not what is being discussed), or a bad reaction to the medications being used on him..
 

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The problem with mycobacteria the pictures of it are nasty to look at.

There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.

Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with.

The betta in this photo is still fine, I've been observing it for over a week now. It's being kept floating in a cup inside a 80 degree tank.

I would estimate this particular betta fish is about 1 year old now.



*Sorry the pictures aren't clearer. But thought I would post them to give everyone a slightly better photo to help prevent a misdiagnosis.

Feel free to save a copy of the photo if you want for future reference.





http://imageshack.us/a/img254/8700/jan82013notations.jpg
 

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Very Helpfu

Thank so much for this information now that I'm getting ready to set up another tank I will definitely keep this in mind. This information needs to be a sticky.
 

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I am worried that other breeders/farms won't be as careful with their stock and then the fish available to me, the average Joe pet owner/consumer, will have this disease, and then I couldn't hope to see my betta live past a year of age.
 

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Discussion Starter #105
Can I ask something ?

My fish, he is one year and one month. He's fin rot, and I add medicine. He recovery, and I moved him in the tank. He was fine, and he makes bubble net a lot. After two weeks, he didn't eat, and he always in the bottom of tank. First, I moved him in the hospital tank with salt. The next day, I add Tetracycline. But he didn't eat. After that, he has pine cone, and I change water and add Fungus Clear. The next day, he's gone.
His ski become red, and his skin was broken.

What do you think ?
Was that Micobacteria ?
without having opened him up to look for the granulomas there is not way to tell for sure. What you CAN do is get a disinfectant FOR the mycos.. treat everything.. and start fresh watching the health of your new fish. If it was not TB.. you are no further behind. And if it was..you have at least taken the steps to kill it right then and there.

Sorry for the loss..
 

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Discussion Starter #106
There's only so many blurry, diseased fish I can look at before I call it quits.

Anyway.... take a look at these photos, let me know if anyone feels the highlighted areas are something I should be concerned with.

The betta in this photo is still fine, I've been observing it for over a week now. It's being kept floating in a cup inside a 80 degree tank.

I would estimate this particular betta fish is about 1 year old now.



*Sorry the pictures aren't clearer. But thought I would post them to give everyone a slightly better photo to help prevent a misdiagnosis.

Feel free to save a copy of the photo if you want for future reference.





http://imageshack.us/a/img254/8700/jan82013notations.jpg
I would be concerned about this fish. Use good bio-security and get a good disinfectant. If he is your only fish.. he may live a while. Depends on how fast it attacks the internal organs and they fail. So if your only fish you can just ride it out and then nuke everything with the proper cleaner once he passes. Get rid of gravel and filter. If you have other fish.. avoid cross contamination as you watch him, if he declines you may want to put him down. And be careful of yourself .. no open cuts in the water. I run my tank water down the drain.. so my drains and the counter get sprayed every night.
 

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Are you an idiot or do you just choose to be ignorant? I have spelled out more ways than one I have spoken DIRECTLY with those PAID to research this disease IN FISH. Take it for what you will. Attacking me and trying to discredit my information from those MORE EDUCATED than you is not doing anything but making you look rather foolish. You obviously believe in your own importance more than those whose living is researching fish disease. Go supervise your yeast.
lol BB.. Anyone who actually takes the time to read what you say, and who can understand it know you are only repeating what actual experts have told you/warned you. I don't want you to look bad in all of this, as you had done nothing wrong in creating this thread.. Most of the people reading this (who are keeping quiet) are behind you and can see that the ones who have thrown around arguments and make claims like this can be healed in a fish are making themselves look bad.. don't want you to stoop to their level.

This thread wasn't an opinion by one person, this thread isn't about how every fish has it and you have to keep your tank clean to avoid it. This isn't something that can be cured. It's a warning from experts in the proper field about how this is starting to become pretty wide spread, and if people can't see it for what it is, then it's on them to look silly :p But most of us see it the way it is meant.. no one can take away your reputation, BB, and the people who know you, know you are one of the best out there when it comes to caring/breeding for these fish and helps others out at the drop of a dime.

No offense to anyone here in particular, but this is this forum.. not surprising this took off the way it did :sarcastic:

Okay, now expect a 100 pictures of sick fish :D
 

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I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....


Guppy ------
Definitely some sort of tuberculosis.... This fish had extreme bloating, and lesions.. It was like this for around two weeks, i then euthanized as it was the most humane thing to do. This escalated slowly.... MAY 2012

Guppy-------
I'm not sure on this one. He got a bit bloated and then all of a sudden died, within two to three days. OCTOBER 2012

Betta --------
He started to bloat really bad, and was on the bottom of the tank for a while. Sakura helped treat with metronidazole, worked like a charm. Came back on Monday night, died Tuesday. OCTOBER 2012 AND JANUARY 2012

Platy -------
On Tuesday night, had raised scales, fin rot, and white bit on her, all of a sudden. Died Wednesday morning. JANUARY 2013


Platy and two guppies were from same store and lived in same tank. I use all the same supplies.

Any thought?
 

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Anyone want to acknowledge what I said?
 

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I am worried that other breeders/farms won't be as careful with their stock and then the fish available to me, the average Joe pet owner/consumer, will have this disease, and then I couldn't hope to see my betta live past a year of age.
I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
So yea, sure, most fish have M.
But cases of MT or MM still seem uncommon..

Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
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I don't think there will be an issue with MT or MM, or at least a very large one. Look how fast these bacteria wipe out populations, it wouldn't make sense that they're still breeding and selling them for more than a one time issue (until they realized what's wrong).
Look at it this way, this knowledge has been around for 10-20 years now. If every fish in the store has this then why do they still hit their lifespans of 5+ years for most species? A healthy fish is able to live with M generally just by being kept healthy.
Sure, BB had an MT break out, we can go ahead and assume that it was taken care of and the source is taken care of.
It makes no sense that MT or MM would exist in stores for more than a generation before wiping out all breeding fish, which would cause the company to figure out what happened.
So yea, sure, most fish have M.
But cases of MT or MM still seem uncommon..

Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
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Ah, okay. Thank you for the insight...that does make sense...
 

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Could my tank have mycotoxins, not mycobacterium?
 

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I'm beginning to think that my tanks have some form of mycobacterium. I have had. Few mysterious death/illnesses. I'll explain one by one....


Guppy ------
Definitely some sort of tuberculosis.... This fish had extreme bloating, and lesions.. It was like this for around two weeks, i then euthanized as it was the most humane thing to do. This escalated slowly.... MAY 2012

Guppy-------
I'm not sure on this one. He got a bit bloated and then all of a sudden died, within two to three days. OCTOBER 2012

Betta --------
He started to bloat really bad, and was on the bottom of the tank for a while. Sakura helped treat with metronidazole, worked like a charm. Came back on Monday night, died Tuesday. OCTOBER 2012 AND JANUARY 2012

Platy -------
On Tuesday night, had raised scales, fin rot, and white bit on her, all of a sudden. Died Wednesday morning. JANUARY 2013


Platy and two guppies were from same store and lived in same tank. I use all the same supplies.

Any thought?
Would need more info on their care - water change schedule/%, food.. some of what you say they have doesn't apply, fin rot is due to water quality + damaged fins, bloating could be a bacteria infection, tumor, improper diet, etc. Raised scales tend to be from organs shutting down, which could be caused for any number of reasons.

Anyone want to acknowledge what I said?
Once this thing strikes you may not notice it for months and months, and by then the fish have bred multiple times. So it is very easy for it to get out there to the general public before it is caught. Not to mention a lot of mass breeders on the farms that don't always pay attention to the health of the fish.. toss away the dead, throw in a new one. Not all, but some.. just like with puppy mills/dog breeding.. there are good ones, and not so good ones. It's smaller breeders who do it from home who catch what is going on much more quicker and easier..

But it doesn't mean that everyone needs to worry and not buy fish.. the point of this thread is to warn people it's out there and to take precautions and try to buy the healthiest fish you see. I've purchased my fair share of store fish and only one had an issue that showed right after purchase - luckily was just internal parasitic infestation. This shouldn't stop you from buying a fish, just be more aware of the health of the fish you are purchasing. Don't try to "rescue" a sick fish, as you then run the risk of causing your other fish to become sick with one thing or another.
So don't freak out Finn.. you can't control what happens sometimes with new fish, you can control the care they get when you bring them home. It's common for a newly purchased betta to pass away within a couple weeks of being brought home for unknown causes.. but that doesn't stop people from buying them. It happens. Just make sure to keep the tank and the equipment clean and more likely than not, your fish will be fine.
 

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Thank so much for this information now that I'm getting ready to set up another tank I will definitely keep this in mind. This information needs to be a sticky.
It would be a useful sticky if it could be re-written to be more organized and especially with less hysteria inducing language.

FOR EXAMPLE:


it is a very serious disease and in most of the fish available at your local pet shop. Their guess is 70% of the TRADE. That means ALL fish.........

FROM ONE FREAKING FISH I destroyed 3 years of work, over 500 bettas in one afternoon. I could not even enter my fish room for days. I dealt with fin rot, lesions, lifted gill plates, dropsy and the list goes on........

ALL were diced up and tested and ALL tested positive for mycos........

Thats right.. something you have NOT heard of. Google it. And you will find it shows up in people.........

THERE IS NO CURE and THE FISH WILL DIE. .........

So DO NOT tell me you can bleach or use vinegar on this. DO NOT tell me it is not that serious.......

If you have sick fish - destroy them, nuke everything and start fresh being more careful.
 

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Put yourself in her shoes.. how would you feel if after years of working lines (remember it takes 3+ months in order to breed the next generation), and killing hundreds of your fish including ones you have fallen in love with, etc.. how would you feel? Anger? Sadness? Disheartened? Wouldn't you be a bit passionate when telling people what happened? Whether it's anger or sadness coming through.. you will still make a point in warning others, and that point can easily be very straightforward and blunt and there is nothing wrong with that.

It wasn't until she got attacked for no reason did the words get stronger.

Put yourself in her shoes and then tell me you would be very calm and pleasant when describing what you had to do to your beloved fish.

If this were to be rewritten, I would use the article she wrote along with her personal story.. but the facts are still the same.. this was a warning, not an attack, on her part.
 

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Do fish even get MTB? I thought we were mostly talking about MT, not MTB...
Reading the thread backwards. (I miss a day, and miss all the fun! LOL)

No, per the SRAC publication:
  • Fish do NOT get Mycobacterium tuberculosis, which is "TB" that affects people.
  • Fish ARE susceptible to OTHER strains of Mycobacterium however -- such as M. piscium, M. marinum , and M. fortuitum, and M. chelonea. (1)
(1) From the article: Mycobacterial Infections of Fish: (I've bolded the sections.)

"Mycobacterial diseases of fish are common, particularly in intensive aquaculture systems and display aquaria. These diseases are collectively referred to as “atypical mycobacteriosis” or simply “mycobacteriosis.” The term “fish tuberculosis” has been used in the past to refer to this group of diseases, but the term is not appropriate and should not be used. Tuberculosis is a very important disease of humans and mammals, but fish do not get tuberculosis.

All fish are susceptible to mycobacteriosis, though some species seem to be at greater risk than others. The disease has been reported in a broad range of fish species from freshwater, marine and brackish water environments."
 

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I agree, MTB is just confusing me when people say it.

Her original words were very harsh, the first post was edited for language a lot.
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Unfortunately, in her first post, she was rather rude and as Olympia said, it had to be edited. Her words were quite strong and insulting to many people.

I understand her frustration, truly I do. I realize she has invested thousands of dollars in her fish and I am glad she wants to warn people of the danger. It's simply that there are less hysterical ways of doing it. No one is doubting that she had a problem, no one is doubting that she has taken care of it. No one is attacking her fishkeeping methods and if they are, they are in the wrong to do so because no one takes better care of fish than breeders. What is being questioned is simply how widespread the disease is.

The bottom line is this and no one can argue with this:

Without testing/dissecting thousands if not millions of fish from pet stores around the world to see if they truly have this strain of mycobacteria, it is irresponsible of ANYONE (be they a published author or a newbie) to say that this is widespread and that every fish has it and will die from it.

BB herself has said, as have several other published experts, that there is no way to tell if a fish truly has this strain of mycobacteria without these tests to see if the granulomas are present. Pointing out the external symptoms does not help because many diseases have symptoms that mimic each other and in addition, as Callistra pointed out, there are also many secondary diseases to be dealt with as well that could be causing physical symptoms.

If this thread continues to be a point of contention in which people take sides and accuse each other of attacking the other side, it will be closed and removed.
 

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What medication did you use to treat fin rot? Medications, as a whole, can be very hard on fish due to their small/fragile organs. It's very easy to overdose on the medications which could also cause a lot of health problems.

It seems you have used numerous medications on the fish.. why I am curious as to what you did for the fin rot.

Pineconing happens from all different ailments, normally it happens once internal organs start to fail.. which could of happened due to medications being used.. even using AQ salt for certain problems such as SBD can make things worse and deadly.

He may of had an internal bacteria infection (not what is being discussed), or a bad reaction to the medications being used on him..
First, I used to Aqua Salt, but it's not woking. And he looks like not good, and I use other anti bio. So, he become recover, and I didn't use any medicine. After that, he is not good, and I use Tetracycline, but it's not working, and he has dropsy. So, I changed Fungus Clear, and he still has red in his skin. Teh next day, he gone, and his skin was broken.

I have to take care of medicine.

Thank you,
 

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without having opened him up to look for the granulomas there is not way to tell for sure. What you CAN do is get a disinfectant FOR the mycos.. treat everything.. and start fresh watching the health of your new fish. If it was not TB.. you are no further behind. And if it was..you have at least taken the steps to kill it right then and there.

Sorry for the loss..
What is TB ?
Thank you so much for your advice.
I have to take care of my fish, and then new fish.

Thank you,
 
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