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Discussion Starter #1
So....
The decision has been made... a friend of mine has a 150 gallon NPT that she wants to turn into a sorority tank, when she found out I was breeding she was of course VERY interested in purchasing females from me.... so Ihave her choice on what kind (she may also purchase 3 or 3 males for a 10 gallon she has... though it is not NPT... yet)....so I decided since she would be my main buyer I would let her choose which female and male... so she told me she wanted marbles.... but I have no purchased a new marble HM male (from a breeder) and I am currently bidding on a few more...

My first question is... what male?

the female: Merle, HM marble... green, black, blue












I DO have a "matching" male (her brother) but he is a HMPK (similar coloring), but I would prefer to breed HM's first go around since I have a few people interested in HM males
So I have purchased one male on Aquabid and Im bidding for a few more...


The first male is blue/gree/white marble HM (named Smudge), he should be here on the 25th at the latest






Now, the other two Im bidding on are marble HM's... because they are not "MY" fish Im not going to post pictures, but the first one is a dark blue/white HM, parents are marble HM's and ALL have GREAT fins....
the second one is a green/white HM, parents are green marble HMs and the father has great fins, I don't really like the mom's fins though

So who would be a better match: Smudge, a dark blue/white marble HM, or a green/white marble HM?


I have microworms and vinegar eels on the way, but I have yet to find BBS so I wont breed till I have them
 

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If you win the green and white I'd use him.
But Smudge is also quite nice ;3
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Lol, thats what I was thinking... but I did look back on the blue marble and I noticed something.... his dad has orange.... and Merle's mom had orange (the wheels are turning)... lol, I have 3 days left on both auctions so we'll see how it goes, the last fry posted from these parents (both) went fast and high.... fingers crossed... :)
 

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Oooo...>.> Blue/green and orange marbles sound awesome. xD

Is there no 'buy now' price?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
My thought EXACTLY.... :-D
Sadly no :-( most of the sellers other bettas have it, just not these marbles :-(
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It depends... though normally a few days.... though sometimes two "lovebirds" just aren't compatible
 

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I've had spawns that took almost 3 days, then I once had a spawn that only took 1 hr! It really depends on the fish you choose and how compatible they are.
 

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@litlebettas:
I am advising based on show quality than anything else. Though your friend will be your main buyer for this spawn, yet you can easily rehome better quality bettas..... as you can see on AB, the better quality goes pretty fast.

If you only want to produce marbles with no specific patterns, one marble will give you marbled fry. You don't need 2 marbles. Since your female is a marble, thus you don't need a marble male (for future reference). But I guess 2 marbles will give you a higher percentage of marbles.

When bidding on a betta, do not only consider his color. I mean you will be paying a lot for them - with shipping and all, right? So might as well get your moneys worth. Look for the ones whose dorsal (at least) stands up right. Leaning forward is better. If you can see their rays, look for ray branching.
Look for caudals with as many rays as possible (8 rays). This is more important on the female than the male. If you have difficulty spotting the rays, just look for the ones that has a 180* spread with pointed edges.
Look for anals that are as balanced to the caudal (not longer) as possible. Your female (green marble) looks balanced. So she should produce some balanced fry which IMO you should consider for your F2.

This is a simple guide that has helped me produce good enough fry.
Good luck with everything.
.......................
@auomauom:
It depends mainly on the female - if she is a first time breeder, then she will need a longer time (often 3 days or so) - not saying a first timer won't spawn within the first 24 hours. Veterans usually only need less than 24 hours to spawn - some will spawn with in the hour.

Hiding places and large tank size can also prolong the process. If you're using a big tank with good hiding places where the male can't follow/can't see through, the female can rest as long as she like and come out when she's ready - the male can't force her to come out. Thus the process may take a week.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@litlebettas:
I am advising based on show quality than anything else. Though your friend will be your main buyer for this spawn, yet you can easily rehome better quality bettas..... as you can see on AB, the better quality goes pretty fast.

If you only want to produce marbles with no specific patterns, one marble will give you marbled fry. You don't need 2 marbles. Since your female is a marble, thus you don't need a marble male (for future reference). But I guess 2 marbles will give you a higher percentage of marbles.

When bidding on a betta, do not only consider his color. I mean you will be paying a lot for them - with shipping and all, right? So might as well get your moneys worth. Look for the ones whose dorsal (at least) stands up right. Leaning forward is better. If you can see their rays, look for ray branching.
Look for caudals with as many rays as possible (8 rays). This is more important on the female than the male. If you have difficulty spotting the rays, just look for the ones that has a 180* spread with pointed edges.
Look for anals that are as balanced to the caudal (not longer) as possible. Your female (green marble) looks balanced. So she should produce some balanced fry which IMO you should consider for your F2.

This is a simple guide that has helped me produce good enough fry.
Good luck with everything.
Thank you so much for this information!!! I was looking at the caudal fins with the two I bid on (long caudals are a big petpeeve, lol) I did not know the dorsal... I have been looking for ones that stand straight up (but I'll keep an eye out for leaning forward now)
I read somewhere that fin shape was more from mom than dad.. .and coloring more from dad so thats what I was going on
I was planning to breed back a male with her... I will probably contact you for help on judging :p

Also... quick question, when breeding, how important should I consider the fins of the parents of the bettas Im breeding?
 

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Yes, form from mom and color from dad. But this isn't 100% true. Their back ground plays a big role. And other factors, like marbles etc which are rather difficult to totally clean out will sort of be dominant though it's mom's genes - specially if she is from a true marble line.

Yes parent's genetic is important. Say you have a so so pair but from a very good back ground. You will have one or two (at least) perfect fry. But say you have a show quality pair but from a bad line, your fry might totally be bad (not SQ).

Try not to breed 2 8-ray because you probably will produce rose tails, unless you want them. Try to always use 8-rayed females with pointed edges instead of males.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Merle's parents are both marbles, the dad was a blue/white/black dragon PK and mom was a blue/green/orange/black SD <---- Im guessing both parents being marbles is what you mean from true marble line?

These are Smudge's parents:

Dad is a lavender/red butterfly HM and mom I think was labeled as a SD (green)



He is still young and Im hoping his fins might improve some (I'll see once he gets here)...
 

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I've had spawns that took almost 3 days, then I once had a spawn that only took 1 hr! It really depends on the fish you choose and how compatible they are.
Thank You!!! I separated the male and female last night and I also don't think my female's ready since I don't see her belly getting bigger. Hopefully it will!!
 

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So you know Merle has a strong marble background. You shouldn't need a marble male to produce marbled fry..... unless of course you want to produce a high percentage marbles. But you (and I) don't know her form background. We can assume though she has long anal genes in her (because her daddy is a PK - though it doesn't show) thus shouldn't be paired to a male with long anal fins.

Smudge's dad isn't SQ but he has great balanced finnage - a rose tail. Unfortunately his mom isn't too good - she is a 4 rayed SD (to avoid rose defects) with poor dorsal (leaning back not forward) and long anals. In general it's better if we presume that Smudge has poor form background (assuming mom's genetic form is stronger). So to be safe, it would be better if he was paired to a really good (form - genetic wise) female.

I'm not trying to discourage you with negative views of your pair. This is my personal (not scientific) judgment which could be totally wrong. Understand that when someone asks about one day producing SQ bettas, I will be harsh with my judgment in the hope that he/she will produce SQ in as few generations as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So you know Merle has a strong marble background. You shouldn't need a marble male to produce marbled fry..... unless of course you want to produce a high percentage marbles. But you (and I) don't know her form background. We can assume though she has long anal genes in her (because her daddy is a PK - though it doesn't show) thus shouldn't be paired to a male with long anal fins.
I do know her parents fins.... I said them, lol... and I do want a high percentage of marbles..
dad was a blue/white/black dragon PK and mom was a blue/green/orange/black SD

Smudge's dad isn't SQ but he has great balanced finnage - a rose tail. Unfortunately his mom isn't too good - she is a 4 rayed SD (to avoid rose defects) with poor dorsal (leaning back not forward) and long anals. In general it's better if we presume that Smudge has poor form background (assuming mom's genetic form is stronger). So to be safe, it would be better if he was paired to a really good (form - genetic wise) female.
I wasn't impressed with his mom either, but I have hopes since he's only 4 months he will show improvement on fins.... and since as you said... it seems mothers genetic form is stronfer....
So would Merle be a good match?


I'm not trying to discourage you with negative views of your pair. This is my personal (not scientific) judgment which could be totally wrong. Understand that when someone asks about one day producing SQ bettas, I will be harsh with my judgment in the hope that he/she will produce SQ in as few generations as possible.
Its totally fine, I have asked for your help, and whether I like it or not, I will take it and use it :)
I appreciate the help :)
Im uploading pictures of Merle's parents now
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Okay...
This is what I have for breeding

breeding tank (10 gal)
Grow out tank (29 gals, plus a 30 gal container that CAN be used)
sponge filters (one for each tank)
Heaters (one each tank)
Live plants (hornwort, anarchis (sp?), and mossballs)


(Soon to arive)
Bananaworms
Microworms
Walterworms
Vinegar Eels
Baby Brine Shrimp (90%)
Hikari First Bites


What am I missing?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So you know Merle has a strong marble background. You shouldn't need a marble male to produce marbled fry..... unless of course you want to produce a high percentage marbles. But you (and I) don't know her form background. We can assume though she has long anal genes in her (because her daddy is a PK - though it doesn't show) thus shouldn't be paired to a male with long anal fins.

Smudge's dad isn't SQ but he has great balanced finnage - a rose tail. Unfortunately his mom isn't too good - she is a 4 rayed SD (to avoid rose defects) with poor dorsal (leaning back not forward) and long anals. In general it's better if we presume that Smudge has poor form background (assuming mom's genetic form is stronger). So to be safe, it would be better if he was paired to a really good (form - genetic wise) female.

I'm not trying to discourage you with negative views of your pair. This is my personal (not scientific) judgment which could be totally wrong. Understand that when someone asks about one day producing SQ bettas, I will be harsh with my judgment in the hope that he/she will produce SQ in as few generations as possible.

I found the thread with the pictures of Merles parents.... they are on the top:

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=77093
 

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I can't comment on them. Their fins aren't open - can't see the form nor the rays. But I can see that all fry that were photoed are 2 rayed - implying that the parents were of poor pairing (form wise)..... I'm guessing the female had a rather round caudal.
 
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