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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys!

So dad came home from work with a bottle of Flourish plant fertilizer, some more food, and a small White Cloud Mountain Minnow. I am currently acclimating him to the tank. Dad said he was all alone in a half gallon tank after all his other buddies die. I will eventually get him some more partners, but for now he will have to live alone with my betta in a 10 gallon. Pictures will be in the "Betta Pictures" section later because I will take a picture of them together. Thanks for the look! Updates every few days!

Matt
 

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I think you may have more on your hands than you realize. WCMM need at least a 24 inch tank (20+ gallons) and like cooler temps (60F - 72F) than a betta. Since they are a schooling fish you will need at least 6 together, but the more you get the less nippy they will be. They are an active swimmer, so the longer the tank you can get, the better. Short-term keeping one in a tank with your betta will be okay, but for the fish's long-term health the school will need it's own setup.

More info: White Cloud Mountain Minnow (Tanichthys albonubes) TFK Profile and Seriously Fish - White Cloud Mountain Minnow (Tanichthys albonubes)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks TheKoiMan! Everywhere I read though, it says they need at least 10 gallons? And the temperature is as 75 F right now; I wont raise it right now. And next week I will be purchasing at least 4 more.
 

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75F is probably the closest you will get to a happy medium in that tank. If you look at those two links above (both cite scientific sources; I also know the author of one and he doesn't write anything that isn't supported by science or years of empirical observation), you will see that they require at least 20 gallons as they like to be in large groups and need ample swimming room. A 24" tank is a 20 gal. A 20 long would be preferred. So congrats on the second tank. Craigslist is a good place to find cheap used tanks.
 

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I agree that you are going to need a lot more of them... And more space.
I don't, however, agree about the temperature. They are more than happy all the way up to around 80. They breed like rabbits at around 76 to 78 so that is where most shops and breeders keep their tanks.
They are fine in low temps - but the water in their natural habitat does get a lot warmer in the summer. I think that a lot of places forget that there are huge differences in temp over the year for these guys (and goldfish).

The main reason I wouldn't want to keep them with a betta at that temperature is that they like to have seasonal fluctuations, not all year round warmth. Another reason is that they will eat anything, even pellets that look way too big. Mine would steal from my goldfish when I had them in the same tank for a bit. The goldfish pellets were huge, but they would choke them down. I have no doubt that they would dart in and steal from your betta.

Which reminds me - they are one of the only fish I would actually suggest to keep with a fancy goldfish. (Or rather, a goldfish too small or too slow to possibly eat them.) They will eat the same food and like the same water.
 

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Breeding is the reason they are kept up that high. As a pet, they are going to live a longer life kept down around 72F. It's the same case with guppies. They can be kept at higher temps, but will live a longer life if kept in the low 70's. At a higher temperature, a fish's metabolic processes work harder. Lower temps (within a fish's norm) slow this down. It is fine to raise it for breeding purposes as you must in some cases, but keeping a fish in the lower end of its preferred range is going to give it a longer life.
 

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Is it ironic that I read the same thing about angel fish, yet most people say to keep their water warmer?
 

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^^
I agree. I keep my guppies at 73.
 

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Breeding is the reason they are kept up that high. As a pet, they are going to live a longer life kept down around 72F. It's the same case with guppies. They can be kept at higher temps, but will live a longer life if kept in the low 70's. At a higher temperature, a fish's metabolic processes work harder. Lower temps (within a fish's norm) slow this down. It is fine to raise it for breeding purposes as you must in some cases, but keeping a fish in the lower end of its preferred range is going to give it a longer life.
It may be true that cooler temperatures lengthen their lifespan, but a shorter lifespan due to faster metabolism is a bit different from shortening their lifespan due to keeping them in unsuitable conditions.
Higher temps *are* within their norm - their natural habitat easily reaches and maintains those temperatures for part of the year. The difference between them and tropical fish is that their natural habitat also has very low temperatures.

The fish themselves seem happier, more active, and more comfortable in the higher temperatures. Slower metabolism does not mean that it is better for the welfare of the fish - it just keeps them alive longer, which is appealing for someone keeping them in an aquarium.
 

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Slower metabolism does not mean that it is better for the welfare of the fish - it just keeps them alive longer, which is appealing for someone keeping them in an aquarium.
Aren't we keeping the fish in an aquarium? So, didn't you just kill your own argument...?

Either way, I'm going to have to agree with thekoimaiden. After honing my google-fu (and reading her sources) what shes said coincides with what I have found. :) and if you were wishing to breed then keeping them at higher temperatures would probably do it, just realize that you'd have fry to care for. :)
Good luck!
 

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75F is probably the closest you will get to a happy medium in that tank. If you look at those two links above (both cite scientific sources; I also know the author of one and he doesn't write anything that isn't supported by science or years of empirical observation), you will see that they require at least 20 gallons as they like to be in large groups and need ample swimming room. A 24" tank is a 20 gal. A 20 long would be preferred. So congrats on the second tank. Craigslist is a good place to find cheap used tanks.
I'm with KoiMaiden on tank width and temperature. Would it be ok to keep them in something that has a 24 inch footprint but doesn't hold the full 20 gallons, or do they have a relatively high bioload for their size? What's it comparable to?
 

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IMO minnows seem pretty comparable to danios. :/
They are. Both danio and WCMM are cyprinids. But cyprinidae is the largest freshwater fish familes and includes such monsters as koi, grass carp, giant barbs, and silver carp (ie those jumping fish that invaded the Mississippi). I know koi and goldfish have a pretty heavy bioload, but they are also pretty robust fish. I'm not sure if this heavy bioload extends to all cyprinids. All I know is that they need large swimming room, so go for a longer tank over a taller one. They probably could live in less than 20 gallons if the tank was long enough (if memory serves me right I have seen tanks like this before), but more water volume is always better as it holds a more steady temperature and water parameters. A 40 breeder would be a great size for a good school of these.
 

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I don't know about keeping them as PETS, but my lfs has these guys as feeder fish, i got a dozen and put them in my 30long for Toothless (my axolotl) to eat, and his tank is not heated at all, it stays between 63-66 through the day, and they are so active and fast he just cant catch them. Its been two weeks, and i still have a dozen WCMMs. Lol!! So i got him some rosy red minnows to eat instead, and they are either just slower swimmers, or dumb, because those didn't even last a week. Guess i have a school of WCMMs now. And yes, i feed them gold fish flakes.
 

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Housing choice

Don't like to "jump in, interject and such"-- but I could use advice in similar situation. Five days ago I bought a 55 gallon tank and along with it came an assortment of fish... including four of these same "cloud minnows". I didn't like them at first, but they have colored up and I like their ways now. Except the mature Serpaes and Black veils have a hard time getting enough to eat.(Tetras). Anyway, I see I should put them in a bigger tank too. I can put them in a 29 along with three mature cories or a 35 with two smallish goldfish. And I think I should get 4-5 more? Being in Florida I'll probably be running the air conditioner more than I want this summer! Which tank..uh?
 

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Aren't we keeping the fish in an aquarium? So, didn't you just kill your own argument...?
No. A longer life does not equate a better life. Longer life is more appealing to someone with an aquarium because, well, the fish is alive longer. That is it.

You can keep frogs alive almost twice as long by lowering their temperature - but they lose out on activity, do not mate, and don't grow as much. People wouldn't do this with frogs as the difference is more obvious...
However, when it comes to fish, it is alright to give them a less natural life (year round low temperatures) instead of a more natural pattern of seasonal fluctuation because it keeps them alive longer.

You can also keep dogs and cats alive longer by feeding them a very very low calorie diet (near starving) and providing daily stress to stimulate survival responses. It has also been shown that horses kept indoors have a longer lifespan than those allowed to romp in fields and enjoy themselves. But would you do this? Fish fall closer to decoration than pet - especially when it comes to very small schoaling fish like the WCMM - so a long life tends to be favored over a natural and healthy life for the fish.

I have never suggested it would be good to keep them at a high temperature year round. What I am saying is that a high temperature year round is not going to be any worse than a low temperature year round because they live in a seasonal environment. The optimal is a set up where the temperature fluctuates with the seasons - low in winter, high in summer.

I will stick with Chinese (their native country) and Japanese breeding information on them. I take the same stance with goldfish - all the western information says they need to be in low temperature tanks all the time... When the actual breeders in China and Japan breed them in tanks that fluctuate with the seasons, going up to around 30C in the summer.
 

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Don't like to "jump in, interject and such"-- but I could use advice in similar situation. Five days ago I bought a 55 gallon tank and along with it came an assortment of fish... including four of these same "cloud minnows". I didn't like them at first, but they have colored up and I like their ways now. Except the mature Serpaes and Black veils have a hard time getting enough to eat.(Tetras). Anyway, I see I should put them in a bigger tank too. I can put them in a 29 along with three mature cories or a 35 with two smallish goldfish. And I think I should get 4-5 more? Being in Florida I'll probably be running the air conditioner more than I want this summer! Which tank..uh?
I'm a little confused as to what is where. I think you'll get a better response if you just start your own thread in the "Freshwater and Tropical Fish Forum." It seems like you have a lot more going on than just the White Cloud Minnows.
 

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In the wild, yes, the temperatures fluctuate and the temperature should gradually increase, then eventually decrease. But technically, goldfish are cold water, most minnows I know of are cold water, and tropical fish are just that. tropical. warm water. Please don't start an argument on it. :lol: I've had minnows, and danios, both of which prefered 68-75, separated from the brackish water mollies, and the fresh water tropical tank of my betta ;-) But because of where I live (Canada) the summers are drastic from the winters, therefore the tanks fluctuate on their own, with heaters to regulate the minimum heat =D

In the long run, minnows can get huge! especially mountain ones... I find a 20 is minimum for at least 4 or 5, minimum, as they can get to 4-6 inches...depending. Some don't, some do.
 

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Well it's easier to keep a steady temp.
I don't think a goldfish tank should be heated, goldfish seem to have a lot of problems with getting enough oxygen in aquariums, and raising the temp lowers the amount of oxygen water can hold. Ponds work a little different since they have large surface areas, and many have a lot of surface agitation.
 

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I agree :lol: which is why even for a 66 gallon, I'm skipping out for goldies.
 
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