[drake]

hi guys.
my female betta got dropsy.early stage.im curius where this bacteria/virus came from?
recently i feed my betta's with frozen blood worm.any thought?
i just change the water daily for my female betta,hopefully she will recover soon.

 

[Helena1]

Thank you

LittleBlueFishlets - Thank you very much for your help and advice


Thanks everyone

 

[BlueInkFish]

my brothers fish has this i think!

 

[Helena1]

So, is the mystery disease fish tb or not?

My fish died suddenly last week. :-(

I wanted to know what he was suffering from, so I took pictures and posted them on forums (including this thread), showed them to people working in specialized ''fish stores’’ - I even took my fish (when he was still alive) to one of the stores to get some help.

After reading this thread – and as one ‘’specialists’’ suggested it was tb – I was convinced that Fish TB was killing my fish.

I called many places, including the university veterinary dept, where they have a team specialized in fish and exotic pets…

You guys know a lot about fish diseases and some of you have even had your fish ‘autopsied’ to confirm it was fish tb , so I want to know you opinion on what their vet said:

I told him about all of the symptoms my fish had (the exact symptoms I’ve read about on this page):
- graphite gray tissue necropsy that spreads from the bottom of the fins upward to the body within hours
- sudden loss of mobility (one day he was fine, the next he was swimming sideways)
- death within 12-24 hours, occasionally as long as 36 hours ( my fish died in 36 hours)

I mentioned Fish TB and asked him if he thought it could be the cause of death.
His answer : I did not think it was fish tb at all. :shock:

He said that Fish tb is extremely rare in small aquariums like mine and most of the fishes suffering from the same symptoms are dying of bacterial infections – nothing else, not fish tb. :shock:

He said that many diseases could cause the symptoms I was describing, and more…if, for any reason, the fish’s immune system is compromised, a disease can quickly take over a fish’s entire body and kill him in a matter of hours.

Also, he said that the symptoms of fish tb are usually a loss of scales, loss of color, lesions, wasting, curved spines and that it does not always kill a fish quickly - in his opinion, mycobacterium can be present in a fish but not develop until the immune system is compromised, and it can take days.(like streptococcus in humans). This could explain why it was found when an autopsy was done on a fish.

So, is the mystery disease fish TB or could it be something else? If it is fish tb, why don’t we see curved spines, lesions and loss of scales? Do you know of another disease that can cause the same symptoms and kill a fish so quickly?

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

The only way to know for certain whether a fish has Mycobacterial infection is to via laboratory analysis and/or a necropsy. (Technically speaking, people have autopsies, animals have necropsies.)

Several members here (Coppermoon and Basement Bettas) had their fish necropsied and analyzed by independent laboratories. Both of them are breeders and show their fish, so to them, it was worth the expense to pay for this. In both cases, they were told that their fish tested positive for Mycobacterial infections.

There are a few posts in this thread (and another one about Mycobacterial infection, which I don't think got stickied), that discuss how of these fish don't always appear to have the 'classic' symptoms (curved spines, etc). But I don't recall seeing a clear answer about this.

There were questions posed in these threads asking why blue Bettas seemed to show a slightly different set of symptoms, where the fins turned gray (but no lesions or spine curvature was noticed). Again, I don't recall seeing any answers about this. (I do remember one post where someone said this was being studied.)

As for Mycobacterial infection being rare in small aquariums, my answer would be a question: Where was your fish before you got him? Many of us get our fish from chain petstores. Before that, the fish were often imported to large scale distributors. Could they have been exposed to something there? The answer is: We don't know.

You asked if other diseases could cause these same symptoms of gray fins, loss of mobility and quick death. I am not a veterinarian, but I would say that the gray fins indicate tissue death. At this point when this occurs, the internal organs are failing, and the fish is dying. As it dies, the external tissues (fins) would start to die first and turn gray/black. As the internal organs fail more, it's possible that the fish will lose mobility. And once the organs fail completely, death would result.

So I would guess that yes, other aggressive infections that attack the internal organs could possibly cause the same type of symptoms.

But, from what I have read, the only way to know for sure if a fish has Mycobacterial infection is to conduct lab analysis and/or a necropsy. During a lab analysis, internal organs are examined, and samples are cultured to determine the presence of Mycobacteria. So, unfortunately, this is the only way to really determine whether this was the actual cause of death.

Hopefully, someone like Sakura, Basement Bettas or Coppermoon will weigh in on this.....

 

[Helena1]

Sorry

I'm sorry. I thought I read a post saying it was confirmed it was tb causing these symptoms. Maybe because English isn't my first language I misunderstood. sorry again.

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Yes, you're correct in that it was Mycobacterial infection that caused the death of Coppermoon's and Basement Betta's fish. They both confirmed this via necropsy and lab analysis....

But it's possible that there are other illnesses/diseases that can have similar symptoms. So the only way to know for sure if it's Mycobacteria causing the problem is to do what Coppermoon and Basesment Bettas did, which is to have the fish necropsied and/or analysed.

Unfortunately, lab analysis/necropsy is expensive. So it's not something that most people will do. And even if someone wants to have an analysis/necropsy done, it must be done right after the fish dies. If it's not done right away, the body decomposes, and the lab can't determine the cause of death.

But again, maybe Sakura, Coppermoon or Basement Bettas will be able to provide more information about this for you.

 

[MattsBettas]

You can do your own post mortem necropsy, which will not be as conclusive as a lab analysis but *may* give you an insight on how the fish died, since there are often very obvious internal symptoms in fish with myco.

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Matt - Would someone doing this need a microscope, or it is possible to see the abnormalities just by looking at specific organs?

(Also, do you know if these abnormalities are specific to Myco, or could similar changes be caused by either bacterial or parasitical infections?)

 

[MattsBettas]

Granulomas (small white growths caused be the body attacking the bacteria) should be visible to the naked eye for someone that doesn't have impaired sight, but a microscope would be very helpful, especially if you are looking for other things like parasites.

There are a few other things that can cause granulomas to form but they are relatively uncommon. If the fish has shown other symptoms of myco and granulomas are present it would be safe to conclude that myco was the cause of death and to take appropriate sterilization measures, etc.

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Very helpful info, thanks!

 

[34339]

My fish has a small patch of grey on his gills and has trouble staying upright. I can't see any other areas of infection. Could it be this horrible disease? This is urgent I need to know as quickly as possible.

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Hi DalekDYE,

There are lots of potential causes for discoloration and buoyancy issues. Many (most) of them are from minor health issues. For example, your Betta's buoyancy issues could simply be due to constipation or overfeeding.

I recommend that you start a new thread for your Betta. Explain what's going on. Copy and paste the information from this sticky into your post so we have a clear idea of what's going on.

But again, what you've described so far sounds like a minor digestive issue which might require a day of fasting or a food brand change.

 

[shannonpwns]

Has it been determined what this is exactly? Because I fear my female may have it...

http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=270514

 

[chicklette]

What can I do for my constipated beta?

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

Hi chicklette:

1) Click here. Highlight the entire form and copy it.

2) Click http://www.bettafish.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99.
Right above the list of threads is a box that says "Post New Thread."
Click it and start a new thread.
Paste the form into it, and answer the questions.

 

[PonyJumper101]

What causes this disease?

 

[LittleBlueFishlets]

There are potentially two diseases.....

Mycobacteria is what affected Coppermoon's and Basement Betta's fish. This was verified via laboratory analysis.

Then there's the "graphite disease" which causes the fins to turn gray (graphite-colored), followed by death within 48 hours. So far, I haven't seen anything definite on whether this is also caused by the same type of Mycobacteria, or if it's caused by something else.

I would treat cases of both Mycobacterial infection and "graphite disease" similarly until we know more. This means following strict protocols in terms of disinfecting the tank and equipment, and preventing cross-contamination between tanks. (Bleach is not effective on Myco!)

Also, Mycobacteria spp is one of the few diseases that can cause illness in humans, so protect yourself by wearing gloves. (It can cause nasty sores on your hands if it gets into the tissues.)

Don't touch fish that may be infected with this. If they die, put them into a plastic bag. (Better yet, double-bag them!) Dispose of the body in the trash. (Do not put them into a nearby lake, etc. Doing this can contaminate the water, and cause other fish to become sick.)

 

[MattsBettas]

You can also burn the bodies, since myco is not spread in the air and high temperatures kill it.

 

[Bettalover41]

I wish I would have seen this thread earlier. All of our blue betta females my lovely oracles except for Seagrass are all dead. I already disposed of their bodies. I'm hoping and crossing my fingers that the others that are left do not suffer this fate at all.